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Old 12-23-2016, 01:59 PM   #81
serotonin
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Alps are looming on the compass.
Perhaps Carpathians.
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Old 12-23-2016, 02:07 PM   #82
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Agreed, but I also think we can all agree that there needs to be much stronger DEC enforcement in many areas.
Perhaps if another good thing comes out of this, the first being the fact that the two young people lived, the next good thing will be that the DEC will get the person power they need for their mission. Was everyone else as taken aback as I was that the number of rangers is the same as it was 8 years ago, in the setting of an explosion of tourists/hikers/skiers/snowshoers in the Adirondacks?
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Old 12-23-2016, 04:33 PM   #83
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The lifeguards whom the winter saves

Icing on the warm fresh cake.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnQvJND0aCo



So the Music.
So the Trial.












And the talk goes on...
Draining blood from well-fed faces.
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Old 12-23-2016, 05:55 PM   #84
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Icing on the warm fresh cake.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnQvJND0aCo

So the Music.
So the Trial.


And the talk goes on...
Draining blood from well-fed faces.

Another good thing comes out of it! You reminded me of one of my favorite Peter Gabriel albums!
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Old 12-23-2016, 08:45 PM   #85
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Icing on the warm fresh cake.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnQvJND0aCo


So the Music.
So the Trial.


And the talk goes on...
Draining blood from well-fed faces.

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Old 12-23-2016, 08:57 PM   #86
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Failed fourth grade comprehension...
didya?












You wannit spoon-fed?




I don't wanna slap you with a cold wet fish
or a titanium ladle.

Last edited by serotonin; 12-23-2016 at 09:11 PM..
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Old 12-23-2016, 09:10 PM   #87
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Failed fourth grade comprehension...
didya?


You wannit spoon-fed?

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Old 12-23-2016, 09:30 PM   #88
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OK.
Let's not lose sight of what happened.
What it felt like.
The efforts of extraction.
And the good advice here.
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Old 12-23-2016, 10:08 PM   #89
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OK.
Let's not lose sight of what happened.
What it felt like.
The efforts of extraction.
And the good advice here.
Agreed.
So staying somewhat on topic, here's more icing on your warm cake for you...
https://youtu.be/iqoXGaBO1P8
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Old 12-24-2016, 05:01 AM   #90
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Was everyone else as taken aback as I was that the number of rangers is the same as it was 8 years ago, in the setting of an explosion of tourists/hikers/skiers/snowshoers in the Adirondacks?

Maybe a little, but not for the reason you would probably think. Unfortunately, I would be more surprised if there were actually more rangers than eight years ago, not less or the same amount. So it seems to go.

Rangers are pretty far down the budgetary food chain no matter how badly they may be needed. It's cheaper to rely on the public to self police and report violations when they're seen.

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Old 12-24-2016, 07:51 AM   #91
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Maybe a little, but not for the reason you would probably think. Unfortunately, I would be more surprised if there were actually more rangers than eight years ago, not less or the same amount. So it seems to go.

Rangers are pretty far down the budgetary food chain no matter how badly they may be needed. It's cheaper to rely on the public to self police and report violations when they're seen.
Up until the recent Academy graduation, the number of rangers was way down, numbering somewhere in the low 80's for the entire state. (I'm guessing including 8 years ago). Lots of complaining about certain areas that used to have 2 rangers assigned, then down to just one. They also had severe monthly mileage restrictions on their vehicles, a very low number, given the size of some of their patrol areas (although relief was given for travel to large SAR campaigns).
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Old 12-24-2016, 09:39 AM   #92
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I would venture to guess that there are a lot more AFR's & stewards today than 8 years ago...?
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Old 12-24-2016, 10:35 AM   #93
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I would venture to guess that there are a lot more AFR's & stewards today than 8 years ago...?
Don't know about stewards, but there was a year (about 4-5 yrs ago), when the AFR's were not paid to work in their traditional locations. Dawn (The AFR for Lows Lake) had to take a job at a state campground that year (she hated it), but was rehired for Lows the following year.
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Old 12-27-2016, 02:00 AM   #94
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Or... as I often see is the case, the fellow hunters/hikers/friends/family will attempt a disorganized "search party" on their own before contacting authorities, thus not only delaying professional SAR organization while burning valuable daylight, but also contaminating the area and making a total mess out of any possible future tracking via visual clues or K9 scents.
Yes, very pertinent point. Given the concerned parties have the ability (proximity, resources, etc) to organize a make shift search.
Right or wrong, this brings to mind the recent Collin Gillis (spelling?) search.


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So it's opinion after all. Common sense is based on perception and only infrequently on evidence.
If you want to bring philosophy and physics into this, everything is based on perception, even facts and evidence.
Common Sense, as I see it, is the ability of a person to "connect the dots". Taking what hard facts you have, using your best logic and (yes, sometimes) resorting to your 'gut' to bridge the void.
Again, you may call it opinion (since it's not based on a formula or hard facts).

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Apparently not. Explore how it was instituted in New Hampshire (and Colorado).
NH and CO are not our great Empire State.
Those "managers" in Flint, MI didn't need any evidence either.
Any attorney worth his weight in salt would be able to argue the state/entity did not properly consider detrimental consequences of the bean counter's argument. (Since this is life and limb, not property and casualty that's at stake here)

I'm not trying to argue with you or change your beliefs or perceptions, simply pointing out the downfalls/consequences of charge the 'victim' for SAR system. (and will stop the drift at that)
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Old 12-27-2016, 02:13 AM   #95
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Was everyone else as taken aback as I was that the number of rangers is the same as it was 8 years ago, in the setting of an explosion of tourists/hikers/skiers/snowshoers in the Adirondacks?
Not so much from that stand point, there's better communications and (gps) tracking abilities that were not available a decade ago. They also are able to call on more resources, like those of NYS Police Aviation.

Where all the tech wizardry falls short is in scale of the landscape. How many acres of forest preserve have been added since then? Then you have easements, state parks, and even urban spaces.
In order for Rangers to be at the trail head and educate the masses of users, which can and in all likelihood does prevent a great deal of SAR incidents, they need to have the time and be stationed at that popular location.

AFR is a very good initiative, but is mainly a summer resource...
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Old 01-07-2017, 10:08 AM   #96
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if people learned just how sar missions are conducted, theyd have a better understanding how to be found.

but nothing replaces actually being out there for experiance. going out with more experianced winter hikers n backpackers is the best education of all. im sure being dehydrated n exhausted in the cold makes for alot of inexperianced mistakes. as we all know, hind sight is 20/20 but more important, the lessons learned as cruel as it sounds, should be stressed as an example, it can happen to anyone!

yes reading everything you can get your hands on is a good start, but when that chill hits ya, all bets are off... experiance, instinct and the awkening of primal survival has to kick in to make good judgements.
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Old 01-07-2017, 02:37 PM   #97
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if people learned just how sar missions are conducted, theyd have a better understanding how to be found.
For those interested (and if you travel in the backcountry you probably ought to be) that question of how exactly SAR is proceeding and what you as the lost person can do to help them find you is pretty well answered in this thread:

What to do if lost

There is a great deal of additional information that can be useful in that thread as well.
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