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Old 03-01-2019, 01:39 PM   #61
Lucky13
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Just to clarify, I have no real problem with the status quo, other than I'm the one paying for the party, and a lot of the guests are getting a free ride. I do have a problem with someone, who should be thanking New Yorkers, throwing us the bird, as I thought (and Schulz et al maybe agree) Jerseyhighlander was.
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Old 03-01-2019, 04:10 PM   #62
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I'm the one paying for the party, and a lot of the guests are getting a free ride.
Have you calculated the dollar amount that you as an individual tax payer pay personally toward the costs of the park? It's possible that one could even estimate the $$ per tax payer that goes towards a specific activity, ie hiking, including rescues, Lean-to maintenance, land maintenance fees, trail work etc. Considering that a certain amount of money spent on trails etc. is raised by the 46ers, the ADK Mountain Club and perhaps other organizations it might be a tricky calculation.
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Old 03-01-2019, 06:43 PM   #63
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Just to clarify, I have no real problem with the status quo, other than I'm the one paying for the party, and a lot of the guests are getting a free ride..
Respectfully, I disagree that doing nothing is the best answer to help reduce the number of SARs in the Adirondacks every year with the current level of voluntary education & the current amount of insufficient DEC enforcement. Not to mention the amount of misuse & abuse certain areas of the Adirondacks continue to receive year after year after year. This is not just a winter visitor problem, and as a tax paying NY resident I would definitely be in favor of some newer & stiffer changes, especially in high use areas of the Adirondack Park.

Last edited by Justin; 03-01-2019 at 08:51 PM.. Reason: Typos
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Old 03-03-2019, 12:36 PM   #64
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Have you calculated the dollar amount that you as an individual tax payer pay personally toward the costs of the park? It's possible that one could even estimate the $$ per tax payer that goes towards a specific activity, ie hiking, including rescues, Lean-to maintenance, land maintenance fees, trail work etc. Considering that a certain amount of money spent on trails etc. is raised by the 46ers, the ADK Mountain Club and perhaps other organizations it might be a tricky calculation.
In your post with the budget numbers, you will note the 30 million for land acquisition, and 20 million for forest stewardship, and much of that money gets spent in the 'daks and Catskills. I respectfully submit that whatever you folks spend on trail maintenance (and you are using the trials, right?) is chump change compared to that 50 million (and that is just one year, and two line items.) And I've been paying those taxes for about 50 years now.

Differential pricing for non-residents hit the State campgrounds a few years ago, I would not be so sure that no fees could ever be assessed, especially if the demand keeps growing, and the level of competency doesn't.
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Old 03-03-2019, 01:12 PM   #65
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You also need to consider that the Environmental Protection fund is just one item in the State Budget, funded by real Estate transfer taxes. There are also expenditures in the Adirondack Park from the budgets of Parks, DEC, Transportation, the NYS Police. All basically out of NYS Resident taxes.

As to Federal contribution, and monies coming from the Feds come in grants, and NJ has the same shot at them as any other state. In general, New Yorkers send one dollar to Washington, and get maybe $0.97 back. Or quote me about the Federal contribution if you know something more about this.

I will vehemently oppose any attempt to incorporate the Adirondack Park into the National Park system.

TNC is handsomely re-compensated for their purchases in the Park, they are not doing anything altruistic but keeping land out of development while the state finds that cash to pay for the land. And lot of the locals would just as soon see the land developed, even thought the state pays "taxes in lieu of" up there.
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Old 03-03-2019, 05:49 PM   #66
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Have you calculated the dollar amount that you as an individual tax payer pay personally toward the costs of the park? It's possible that one could even estimate the $$ per tax payer that goes towards a specific activity, ie hiking, including rescues, Lean-to maintenance, land maintenance fees, trail work etc. Considering that a certain amount of money spent on trails etc. is raised by the 46ers, the ADK Mountain Club and perhaps other organizations it might be a tricky calculation.
I'd like to recast Neil's question (hope that's OK Neil). Since the topic is SAR, let's stick to the topic.

Does anybody know the $'s annual DEC expends on SAR?

I'd tried to find the dollar figure and I'm finding documents easily found online (i.e. Google) are pretty incomplete. I even question my own calculations based on what I've read and came away very unsatisfied.

At the moment my estimate is something between $500,000 and $2,000,000 per year.

And don't think I am only thinking budget. I suspect the wear and tear on the workforce is a major issue of those doing the SAR missions. This may be more of a crux issue.

Don

Last edited by Hear the Footsteps; 03-03-2019 at 06:11 PM..
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Old 03-03-2019, 06:21 PM   #67
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You can get an idea of the depth of SAR involvement in 2017 from here:
https://www.dec.ny.gov/regulations/2371.html

Want statistics?
https://www.dec.ny.gov/docs/legal_pr...frarprtweb.pdf
I do not think the reported costs in the pdf include the SAR cost of personnel time or training.

How rangers spend their time:
https://www.dec.ny.gov/regulations/2369.html
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Old 03-20-2019, 08:54 AM   #68
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Another example of what the NYSDEC Rangers have to deal with;

Town of Keene
Essex County
Wilderness Search: On March 16 at 3:25 p.m., DEC's Ray Brook Dispatch received a transferred call from Essex County 911 reporting three hikers from the Clifton Park area were lost on Giant Mountain. The three hikers - ages 21, 21, and 19 - required assistance to relocate the trail. Under Lt. Gary Friedrich's authority, Rangers Robert Praczkajlo and Kevin Burns were dispatched to the Giant Mountain Wilderness to search for the hikers. At 5:10 p.m., voice contact was made with the subjects. By 5:52 p.m., Rangers located the subjects in good but tired condition. The hikers were wearing sneakers and were unprepared for the backcountry hike. The subjects slowly made their way back to the trailhead and the incident concluded at 6:15 p.m.

Sneakers on Giant in the winter, you have got to be kidding me...
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Old 03-20-2019, 09:44 AM   #69
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Hikers in sneakers.

The word sneakers conjures up images of canvas and rubber low-cut runners such as I wore in gym class several decades ago. However, I've seen people in robust trail runners with gaiters and microspikes move swiftly up trails that are very hard-packed. I believe the current winter 46 speed record holder did the 46W in Hokas.
I'm not defending these clowns on Giant who seem to have been clueless but hiking and ultra-fitness have undergone a fusion. (hiking and nature-loving are for us geezers). We will see more and more people looking like they are heading to yoga class and wearing packs that look like jackets as they do sub 10-hour Great Range Traverses in late October. Will this cause an uptick in rescues?
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Old 03-20-2019, 11:06 AM   #70
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Hikers in sneakers.

The word sneakers conjures up images of canvas and rubber low-cut runners such as I wore in gym class several decades ago. However, I've seen people in robust trail runners with gaiters and microspikes move swiftly up trails that are very hard-packed. I believe the current winter 46 speed record holder did the 46W in Hokas.
I'm not defending these clowns on Giant who seem to have been clueless but hiking and ultra-fitness have undergone a fusion. (hiking and nature-loving are for us geezers). We will see more and more people looking like they are heading to yoga class and wearing packs that look like jackets as they do sub 10-hour Great Range Traverses in late October. Will this cause an uptick in rescues?
Probably. Hi-speed, peak-bagging type hiking usually means paring necessary equipment to the bone. No extra clothes, food, shelter, etc. for an unplanned stay in the woods. One mistake and you're on the phone to 911. "Yeah, I just tripped over an old geezer looking at nature and twisted my ankle. Can you come get me?"
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Old 03-20-2019, 11:28 AM   #71
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"Yeah, I just tripped over an old geezer looking at nature and twisted my ankle. Can you come get me?"
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Old 03-23-2019, 11:12 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Wldrns View Post
You can get an idea of the depth of SAR involvement in 2017 from here:
https://www.dec.ny.gov/regulations/2371.html

Want statistics?
https://www.dec.ny.gov/docs/legal_pr...frarprtweb.pdf
I do not think the reported costs in the pdf include the SAR cost of personnel time or training.

How rangers spend their time:
https://www.dec.ny.gov/regulations/2369.html
There is a table in each report for total incidents and hours worked by the Rangers. Can get back to 1963.

The PDFs do list the hours worked by rangers in SAR and for SAR training they receive and training they provide. These training hours are greater than for the missions. Training hours can get back to 2006.

Right, nothing tabulated for other S&R participants.

Nor anything accounting for hours and equipment costs provided by other agencies including use of the State Police Helicopter. I read in Adirondack Life Sep/Oct 2004 quoting SP Major K Rogers that it costs $800 per hour to operate the $6,000,000 Bell 430 Helicopter. Bell has a brochure for that model with estimated costs Fuel/Maintenance/Pilots (2005) from that I calculated $1,200/hr for 2018. I doubt the cost quoted in Adirondack Life included the cost allocated for bond (i.e. loan) payment.

I used total C&B at $90,000/yr/ranger based on the starting salary published on the DEC website added $12,000/yr health care premium assuming family plan and 23.5% State contribution to pension fund bases on police officers (source for this is a public memo published by the State Controller Dinapoli). Also this would be a straight time rate not a premium or overtime rate. The equivalent hourly rate actually used is based on 52 weeks at 40 hrs per week. ADK also published at the time there was the push to add 40 rangers at the price of $4,000,000; or $100,000 per ranger per year so in the same ballpark.

For 2000 to 2017 averages rounded off figures based on Ranger's hours using an estimated straight time hourly rate.
$1700/mission
$450,000/year/S&R
$530,000/year/Training for S&R

S&R Missions are also tabulated in great detail. Hikers currently account for about 63% of the S&R missions (63, 63, 63, 64% for the years 2014 to 2017).

Don

Last edited by Hear the Footsteps; 03-23-2019 at 12:34 PM..
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