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  • Originally posted by Glen View Post
    Brick wall alert

    You were warned about this.
    Actually I'm enjoying it. I love having examples to point to of people who are incapable of admitting that they are wrong. Clearly here is a classic case.

    It also makes me so grateful that I learned from my elders to observe what was going on around me and not have to rely on other peoples opinions to form mine.

    So, have it CB. I haven't had this much entertainment in a long while.
    "If future generations are to remember us with gratitude rather than contempt, we must leave them more than the miracles of technology. We must leave them a glimpse of the world as it was in the beginning, not just after we got through with it." Lyndon B. Johnson

    Comment


    • I don't think insulting people is a valid part of the solution to educate people on the causes of global warming or the greenhouse effect. When one resorts to that level it usually indicates frustration and an inability to convince others to support your premise. That very likely is true but we are going to have to "pull together" to solve our problems and bickering and "ad hominem" sarcasm just alienates people more. Opposing factions will line up on each side as in "Civil War Battle Strategy" to try and "outgun" their opponents (pun intended).

      Not trying to hijack this thread (although I am sure that time is approaching), here is something which I feel is more timely in its threat to our financial and emotional well being. Mods feel free to start me a new thread if that is necessary.

      China agrees to abandon CFC's but then changes to HFC's. But what are we going to do about the cows who release methane? Please, no more Gore jokes or inflattuation lines. (I made up that word).

      What I think is a more pressing problem and one which most people have absolutely no clue about is the precarious position the American dollar is in. Up until about a year ago the world based all of its financial and product trade on the value of the dollar. It still does. However, other countries can see the proverbial handwriting and are changing value instruments to factions other than the US dollar because they see a collapse on the horizon. When the dollar collapses, that is when more big players lose more faith in our dollar, the cow methane is really going to hit the fan.

      Any idea why Homeland Security is buying ammunition and preparing detention centers all across the country? There also stockpiling tactical equipment. Folks you had better stock up on toilet paper and tuna and weapons cause when it happens, (and it HAS to happen) you won't like it. We keep printing money that has no value. (abandoned gold standard). We cannot pay the interest to our debt. Forget global warming and plan on a global disaster landing on your doorstep.

      Where do you think many will migrate to? That's right! Our precious park.
      Comments?
      Last edited by Schultzz; 04-14-2014, 02:07 AM.
      Never Argue With An Idiot. They Will Drag You Down To Their Level And Beat You With Experience.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by redhawk View Post
        Actually I'm enjoying it. I love having examples to point to of people who are incapable of admitting that they are wrong. Clearly here is a classic case.

        It also makes me so grateful that I learned from my elders to observe what was going on around me and not have to rely on other peoples opinions to form mine.

        So, have it CB. I haven't had this much entertainment in a long while.
        This forum is littered with posters unable to admit they're wrong OR even admit that they MIGHT be wrong. Seems to be confined to the Alarmist side. Case in point. I asked early on what might change everyone's mind (you'll remember I answered that question) and was greeted mostly with silence and a couple of "the science is settled."

        Another example was when everyone was asked to post their sources. Again I was the only one to answer. That's because I actually look at data and form my own opinion. Alarmists don't need sources since they have opinion disguised as consensus. Again I understand why they shy away from discussing data. Its detrimental to their "cause".

        I too find the discussion enlightening. The same faulty logic that allows you to blame the US rather than an exploding "developing" population is the same one that makes you "know" CO2 is causing the temperature to rise. You formed your opinion first than either change or ignore the facts that don't fit your theory, even when they come from the IPCC.
        Last edited by cityboy; 04-14-2014, 06:42 AM. Reason: added consensus argument

        Comment


        • What is difficult with this specific discussion is that either "it is or it isn't" and there is no control experiment. Seems to be going around in tightening circles now.

          Originally posted by Schultzz View Post
          I don't think insulting people is a valid part of the solution to educate people on the causes of global warming or the greenhouse effect.
          Thank you Schultzz.

          Just because you think someone on the internet is "wrong" doesn't mean you have to resort to ad hominism.

          Just a reminder from our friend Webster.
          Definition of AD HOMINEM
          1: appealing to feelings or prejudices rather than intellect
          2: marked by or being an attack on an opponent's character rather than by an answer to the contentions made
          Carry on.
          The best, the most successful adventurer, is the one having the most fun.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Schultzz View Post
            I don't think insulting people is a valid part of the solution to educate people on the causes of global warming or the greenhouse effect. When one resorts to that level it usually indicates frustration and an inability to convince others to support your premise. That very likely is true but we are going to have to "pull together" to solve our problems and bickering and "ad hominem" sarcasm just alienates people more. Opposing factions will line up on each side as in "Civil War Battle Strategy" to try and "outgun" their opponents (pun intended).
            I give the vast majority of people credit for being able to see who should be taken seriously and who should not. Those who shouldn't be taken seriously don't seem to see it, so if we are patient with them they will nail their own coffins shut. I do agree that insults, etc, are unnecessary, unproductive, and can damage credibility of otherwise relevant posts. I also understand the frustration level can reach a point that causes an occasional "slip of the tongue". It's the ol'
            Originally posted by Schultzz View Post
            (continued)
            Not trying to hijack this thread (etc)
            Worthwhile topic. IMO it should be split into a different thread, although I'm not sure how to cast it in the form of an environmental issue. Perhaps put it in the fireside forum? If you'd be so kind, please edit out your portion of your post and start a new thread so this thread isn't hijacked. Thanks!
            Scooting here and there
            Through the woods and up the peaks
            Random Scoots awaits (D.P.)


            "Pushing the limits of easy."™

            Comment


            • So.....about my previous two posts about per-capita pollution?

              Still waiting...

              I see you chose the "ignore post/change subject" option? With a little "declare victory" thrown in as seasoning.
              He found himself wondering at times, especially in the autumn, about the wild lands, and strange visions of mountains that he had never seen came into his dreams.

              Comment


              • "Sir, I'm calling to tell you that your house is on fire"

                "That's what the fire-industrial complex wants you to think! The fire chief owns stock in a fire extinguisher company! They have a vested interest in making people afraid of fires. Wake up sheeple!"

                "But sir, I can see the flames, you should come quickly!"

                "I'm sure you're exaggerating. This is probably part of the natural temperature of any house. That's how thermostats work. The temperature naturally rises and falls."

                "But this is far outside the normal range of temperature for a house"

                "You only have a few hours of data, how do you know it hasn't been this hot before? Also, I happen to know that it was much hotter than this in on May 3rd 2008"

                "Wasn't that the day you had that other fire? Should you be using that as your baseline for normal temperatures?

                "how can you explain that that last night my feet were freezing cold? which is not consistent with a fire. It was so cold I had to plug in several space heaters!"

                "According to the firefighters inside, this seems to have been caused by an overloaded outlet sir."

                "Correlation doesn't prove causation, besides, people have been warning me about that outlet for years, and their models have always proven to be wrong. Heck! a while back people were warning me my pipes would burst if I didn't use more space heaters!! and they were all wrong! WHY CAN'T YOU ADMIT YOU'RE WRONG!!"

                "OK, I'm sending you a picture of your house on fire"

                "I have lots of pictures of my house NOT on fire! Besides, that trailer park down the road has fires all the time! Why can't I?"
                He found himself wondering at times, especially in the autumn, about the wild lands, and strange visions of mountains that he had never seen came into his dreams.

                Comment


                • "Sir, I'm calling to tell you that your house is on fire"

                  Excellent example of an allegorical comparison without the use of ad hominem. Very convincing.
                  Never Argue With An Idiot. They Will Drag You Down To Their Level And Beat You With Experience.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Professor Hobbit View Post
                    "Sir, I'm calling to tell you that your house is on fire" "That's what the fire-industrial complex wants you to think! The fire chief owns stock in a fire extinguisher company! They have a vested interest in making people afraid of fires. Wake up sheeple!" "But sir, I can see the flames, you should come quickly!" "I'm sure you're exaggerating. This is probably part of the natural temperature of any house. That's how thermostats work. The temperature naturally rises and falls." "But this is far outside the normal range of temperature for a house" "You only have a few hours of data, how do you know it hasn't been this hot before? Also, I happen to know that it was much hotter than this in on May 3rd 2008" "Wasn't that the day you had that other fire? Should you be using that as your baseline for normal temperatures? "how can you explain that that last night my feet were freezing cold? which is not consistent with a fire. It was so cold I had to plug in several space heaters!" "According to the firefighters inside, this seems to have been caused by an overloaded outlet sir." "Correlation doesn't prove causation, besides, people have been warning me about that outlet for years, and their models have always proven to be wrong. Heck! a while back people were warning me my pipes would burst if I didn't use more space heaters!! and they were all wrong! WHY CAN'T YOU ADMIT YOU'RE WRONG!!" "OK, I'm sending you a picture of your house on fire" "I have lots of pictures of my house NOT on fire! Besides, that trailer park down the road has fires all the time! Why can't I?"
                    Quite enjoyable

                    Comment


                    • [QUOTE=Professor Hobbit;216071]"Sir, I'm calling to tell you that your house is on fire"
                      /QUOTE]

                      To be more realistic here is a better example:

                      Homeowner: Hello

                      Caller: Sir, I'm calling to tell you that your house may catch fire.

                      Homeowner: When?

                      Caller: Your house will burn from an electrical fire at precisely 2100!

                      Homeowner: OMG that's 9PM tonight!

                      Caller: No sir not military time. The YEAR 2100.

                      Homeowner: That's pretty far in the future. What can I do to prevent it?

                      Caller: You must turn off all electrical appliances including heat.

                      Homeowner: What? How will I live?

                      Caller: That's not important sir. The main thing is to prevent the fire"

                      Homeowner: That's ridiculous. My 80 year mother lives with us. She complains when we set the thermostat down to 60 as is.

                      Caller: Perhaps you would like to enroll her in our senior euthanasia program?

                      Homeowner: NO I don't want to enroll her. That's just crazy. All this for something that MAY happen?

                      Caller: Sir our computer models are never wrong.

                      Homeowner: Computer model? Say wait a minute, aren't you that guy that called last week warning about a tornado?

                      Caller: Yes sir, our computer model simulates one occurring very soon.

                      Homeowner: Listen, I told you I live in the Adirondacks. We get one maybe once in 50 years.

                      Caller: Sir, if you don't turn down your heat immediately our models predict that occurrence rate will rise drastically to once in every 48 years.

                      Homeowner: Hangs up.

                      Caller: Hello. Sir, are you there? Hello? (to his fellow Climatologist: Can you believe that? He hung up! Another selfish Denier!).

                      Comment


                      • [QUOTE=cityboy;216110]
                        Originally posted by Professor Hobbit View Post
                        "Sir, I'm calling to tell you that your house is on fire"
                        /QUOTE]

                        To be more realistic here is a better example:

                        Homeowner: Hello

                        Caller: Sir, I'm calling to tell you that your house may catch fire.

                        Homeowner: When?

                        Caller: Your house will burn from an electrical fire at precisely 2100!

                        Homeowner: OMG that's 9PM tonight!

                        Caller: No sir not military time. The YEAR 2100.

                        Homeowner: That's pretty far in the future. What can I do to prevent it?

                        Caller: You must turn off all electrical appliances including heat.

                        Homeowner: What? How will I live?

                        Caller: That's not important sir. The main thing is to prevent the fire"

                        Homeowner: That's ridiculous. My 80 year mother lives with us. She complains when we set the thermostat down to 60 as is.

                        Caller: Perhaps you would like to enroll her in our senior euthanasia program?

                        Homeowner: NO I don't want to enroll her. That's just crazy. All this for something that MAY happen?

                        Caller: Sir our computer models are never wrong.

                        Homeowner: Computer model? Say wait a minute, aren't you that guy that called last week warning about a tornado?

                        Caller: Yes sir, our computer model simulates one occurring very soon.

                        Homeowner: Listen, I told you I live in the Adirondacks. We get one maybe once in 50 years.

                        Caller: Sir, if you don't turn down your heat immediately our models predict that occurrence rate will rise drastically to once in every 48 years.

                        Homeowner: Hangs up.

                        Caller: Hello. Sir, are you there? Hello? (to his fellow Climatologist: Can you believe that? He hung up! Another selfish Denier!).

                        Comment


                        • no. it's happening now.
                          The glaciers are melting now.
                          The oceans are warming now.
                          The permafrost is melting now.
                          Deserts are expanding now.
                          we're seeing record high global temperatures now.

                          So the alarm has gone off, and we can smell smoke, but the house hasn't burned down yet.
                          He found himself wondering at times, especially in the autumn, about the wild lands, and strange visions of mountains that he had never seen came into his dreams.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Professor Hobbit View Post
                            no. it's happening now.
                            The glaciers are melting now.
                            The oceans are warming now.
                            The permafrost is melting now.
                            Deserts are expanding now.
                            we're seeing record high global temperatures now.

                            So the alarm has gone off, and we can smell smoke, but the house hasn't burned down yet.
                            But it will. Instead of putting out the fire, he's looking for someone else to blame.
                            "If future generations are to remember us with gratitude rather than contempt, we must leave them more than the miracles of technology. We must leave them a glimpse of the world as it was in the beginning, not just after we got through with it." Lyndon B. Johnson

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Professor Hobbit View Post
                              CO2 from our breath is carbon neutral, meaning that it releases carbon that was already in the atmosphere only a short time ago.
                              The carbon we exhale comes from our food. So that carbon was part of a plant not that long ago (a few years, at the most). And the plant got that carbon from the atmosphere. So there's no net change in CO2 from that.
                              I'm not sure where the carbon dioxide in soda comes from. Probably from the atmosphere, so it would be carbon neutral as well.
                              The same applies to burning wood or other biomass. It's carbon neutral. (Of course it releases smoke and particulates that are harmful in other ways)

                              CO2 from fossil fuels has been stored underground for many millions of years, and it took a long time to form in the fist place. So when we burn coal or oil, we're releasing, in a few years, amounts of carbon that took millions of years to remove from the atmosphere.
                              So what are the solutions? Should we stop all fossil fuel consumption immediately? If we do how long will it take for the planet to correct itself, and what is the proper state of the Earth? Does it really have one?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by backwoodsman View Post
                                So what are the solutions? Should we stop all fossil fuel consumption immediately? If we do how long will it take for the planet to correct itself, and what is the proper state of the Earth? Does it really have one?
                                Those are fair questions IMO. I'm interested in hearing the answers.
                                Scooting here and there
                                Through the woods and up the peaks
                                Random Scoots awaits (D.P.)


                                "Pushing the limits of easy."™

                                Comment

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