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Old 02-02-2019, 09:11 AM   #1
DSettahr
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The cost of driving 55 mph in snow and ice: Professor details effect of road salting

http://www.adirondackdailyenterprise...sYCUDvBkmlF42I

This article was published in today's Adirondack Daily Enterprise. I thought it was a well-written, succinct overview of one of the more pressing environmental issues in the Adirondack Park.

My current job has me inventorying roadside trees in the Adirondacks. Over the past few weeks, I've been seeing first hand the negative impacts that road salt is having on tree health in areas immediately adjacent to the most heavily salted roads.
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Old 02-06-2019, 07:37 AM   #2
tiogaguy
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Outstanding article! This is a major environmental issue, statewide. Ironic the state spent 10's of millions the past 40 years on acid rain issues, then do this themselves. In the short term, this environmental blight will have more impact on local flora and fauna than climate change unless addressed soon. Our state politicians need to be made aware of the impact of salt. The NY "dry road" policy was ordered by the Cuomo administration as a response to the I-90 closings due to snow storms. It's not only bad for the environment, its terrible for the road surfaces and infrastructure. The frequent freeze/thaw cycles, due to the salt melt, cracks and penetrates the pavement causing it to breakup. It also permeates into the steel support structures shortening their lifespan. Repairing this damage costs NY'ers millions, if not billions of dollars every year. This issue needs to be brought to the forefront as much as fracking was.
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Old 02-06-2019, 07:16 PM   #3
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It's not just what the salt is doing to the plants and water near the roads either. Salt reacts with so many things in many ways that end up causing more problems. A good synopsis of this was published a couple weeks ago on the Revelator:
https://therevelator.org/water-salin...cal-cocktails/

And it not just so we can drive 55. My street has a limit of 30 mph and during the recent storm I noted salt being applied four times/hour.
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Old 02-07-2019, 02:15 PM   #4
TCD
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This is an interesting issue, because it involves several dimensions: Safety, Cost, Environment, and Culture. Successful approaches to this will be guided by an understanding of all four of these.

For some history, here's a link I found that has a helpful review, free of the "advocacy distortion" that's so common:

http://onlinepubs.trb.org/onlinepubs...35/017-030.pdf

Notable from the link:

"Before the 1940s, highway departments relied mostly on plowing and abrasives..."

"During the winter of 19411942, New Hampshire became the first state to adopt a general policy of using salt..."

"After World War II, as the expanding highway system became essential to the public and the national economy, road salt use began to soar. The bare-pavement concept, under which motorists could expect snow- and ice-free pavements shortly after storms, soon became a policy in most cities and their suburbs."

"Road salt use has leveled off during the past 20 years."

So nationwide, this is not a new issue. But after a few decades, environmental effects are (rightly) becoming a concern.

Important to note in this is that the expectation of dry roads is not being driven "top down", but rather has become part of the culture. Of course you can always find Luddites to say "just drive slower" and "just be late" and "I walked ten miles to school every day through waist deep snow." But these folks are a tiny minority. The cultural needle is not going to move back to 1940. The expectation of dry roads on the part of most of the public will remain.

Further, travel safety has become a legal liability expectation. If someone is hurt or killed in an accident, and their attorneys are able to link that to "inadequate ice removal from roads" then the municipality or other government will have a big legal problem n their hands. No government today wants to risk that. So as with the culture, the legal liability needle is not going to move back to 1940.

Now environmental concerns are widely considered to be important by a large part of the population. And experience has shown that people are willing to pay more in order to protect the environment. This is where the comparisons that are made between road salt and acid rain actually have some validity. Acid rain was largely resolved. It cost money to do that, and people showed that they were willing to pay. This is the avenue today for success with the salt issue.

What people today are NOT willing to do (by and large) is: 1. to be inconvenienced; and 2. to have their safety compromised.

So all this analysis offers some guidance to those who are advocating on the road salt issue. Coming to this issue from a point of trying to change the culture, or doing anything that risks safety, is a guaranteed losing approach. Advocates will expend all their political capital, and then one company moving out of state because it's employees can't reliably get to work, or one traffic death lawsuit, and the whole program will be out the window, with advocates cast as "tree huggers who don't care about jobs or safety."

The successful path here is to focus on the available technology to maintain the now required "dry roads" but with the use of less salt. Many technologies are out there which the earlier links don't discuss, including pre-brining, better timing of treatment, improved design plow blades, different chemical mixtures, etc.. The public has shown that they are willing to spend some additional money to protect the environment, and developing and implementing some of these better technologies is a program that can be sold to the public.
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Old 02-08-2019, 07:13 PM   #5
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The state has insalted us all. New England uses a lot of sand. It takes a lot of sand to use that much salt. The answer? educate the people. Especially the very rich very influential people who have the Governor's ear
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Old 02-10-2019, 07:02 AM   #6
tiogaguy
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All of New York's salt come from under Cayuga Lake. Cargill Salt Co. has 13,000 acres of mines under it. It makes $10's of millions for the state in wages and collateral income. Cargill pays minimal state taxes as a company since the are a mining operation. They keep $3.5 million in escrow for any environmental mishaps. I have to keep a $1 million liability policy on a hunting lease!!! Being they are one of Cuomo's rich friends, how are you going to convince them salt is a bad idea? I just read an article where Chlorides/Sulfides were linked to algae blooms in Texas. New York has had issues with widespread blooms, especially the past 5 years or so, I wonder if chlorides are the smoking gun now that they are building up in NY waterways. They been trying to pin it on farming, but farmers have been using many of the same chemicals for years. Could be the chlorides are changing how these chemicals behave in the water? This issue is flying under the radar as an impending environmental disaster.
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Old 04-08-2019, 10:17 PM   #7
Woodly
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I believe much NYS salt also comes from south of Retsof NY. I say south because the century old mine took on water a few years back but its the same deposit...they just mined elsewhere. Same Deposit is also mined near Scranton PA.
Interesting that with modern technology filled cars and radial tires we need so much salt, yet I remember driving 45/55 with the old bias ply tire in cars with no computerized technology.
People are spoiled now and must do, demand being able to, 65 and faster.

Last edited by Woodly; 04-09-2019 at 10:00 AM.. Reason: additionl info
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Old 04-15-2019, 10:58 AM   #8
Frankonix
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Definitely learning a lot from here. Thanks, fellas!
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