Moose River Plains controversy

[rollinslover64]

Quite frankly,when using state land I do not feel that we should have to pay an extra fee for hunting.Supposedly it is our land paid for by our taxes. An extra fee for fishing is reasonable to pay for stocking but when it comes to hunting deer,bear,rabbits,squirrels,and waterfowl none of these animals require extra expense in the form of stocking from the state to maintain adequate numbers.In fact it is the hunters who help maintain adequate numbers. Personally I clear and do simple maintainence on state land trails whenever I hike so I do not feel I should have to pay extra to use them.I would just like to see more do the same.I feel I would be foolish to think that my fee going to the state for hiking would actually be used to maintain trails. I believe the fee would either go in some politicians pocket or to another social program that is totally unrelated to what I'm paying for.

[adkman12986]

No misrepresentation at all. henters and fishermen do not have to pay any fees to hike, do they? Hikers who do hunt or fish do not have to pay the sportsman fees.

Still comes from my taxes.

Where is the misrepresentation? I agree there is some, but it's not from me. No one forces you to hunt or fish, if you do, you have to pay a fee. You have to hike in most cases to hunt or fish but you don't have to pay any extra for hiking.

No one forces you to hike for free.

And I asked if all the money that goes for the game management and the stocking of streams comes from sportsman fees or if other funds (tax dollars) are used for that. What about people who don't hike, paddle, ski, climb, hunt or fish? Their tax dollars are paying for the maintenance, etc.

Road maintainance welfare school aide etc.


Many of the trails todays are maintained by volunteers, Rangers are responsible for checking and policing hunting and fishing and that actually requires a little more effort then just patroling the trails for hikers.

How many times have they had to rescue lost and injured hikers compaired to hunters?

I am all in favor of licenses for hikers. I think we should all be responsible for supporting our recreational endeavors.

On thing we agree on.

[adkman12986]

Originally Posted by rollinslover64

Quite frankly,when using state land I do not feel that we should have to pay an extra fee for hunting.Supposedly it is our land paid for by our taxes. An extra fee for fishing is reasonable to pay for stocking but when it comes to hunting deer,bear,rabbits,squirrels,and waterfowl none of these animals require extra expense in the form of stocking from the state to maintain adequate numbers.In fact it is the hunters who help maintain adequate numbers. Personally I clear and do simple maintainence on state land trails whenever I hike so I do not feel I should have to pay extra to use them.I would just like to see more do the same.I feel I would be foolish to think that my fee going to the state for hiking would actually be used to maintain trails. I believe the fee would either go in some politicians pocket or to another social program that is totally unrelated to what I'm paying for.

Well said. That is what is wrong with the system today.

[40dog]

taxes taxes taxes what taxes pay for what is the question . If you are not a land or homeowner then you only pay income and or sales tax you dont pay school tax , property tax in my case this is close to $11,000 combined a year and they never seem to go down. people who dont own property are really getting a better piece of the action they can use all state access lands , vote on school budjets and improvement projects and not have to pay a penny toward them . ive been a landlord and try raising the rent on a good tennant year after year they wont be around long up and gone . As land owners and sportsman we cant up and leave . the more i think of this whole conversation there realy should be a access pass for non land or home owners these funds should go to the state for help to close budjet gaps in the outdoor sector almost like a empire pass for state park access. land owners should have there pass sent to them upon payment recieved of there taxes . That statement is going to bother some but just because you pay a little sales tax , fuel tax , your not realy feeling the hit try owning some property . These lands are for us to use but allways at someones cost.

[TCD]

Thread has drifted off topic. Back to Moose River Plains, it sounds like APA is tangled up in its drawers again (as usual). What most people agreed as a reasonable compromise is now being mangled by the usual extremists. Too bad...

[40dog]

well if you jointly own a house then your name should at least appear on the deed for the home unless you are hiding from some thing . Without some sort of real proof of owner ship then yes you should also pay extra. Reality is you in the eyes of the state are nothing but a tennant if you are not on a papper for the home and property. many choose to put one name only on the mortage for finanace reasons and or back owed taxes , child support and liens from past problems. Even scams for tax returns for singlr parent and child credit. if the primary owner ever passes on then you will have to fight this in court for owner ship . other family relatives may beat you in court over this even if they had nothing to do with it for years. if you are married you are entitled to half of what has been aquired after the marriage so if you dont appear on paper before that time you my be sol. If there are past children from other marriages they may sweep you out the door with or without your things . Flying under the radar isn't so good these days.so back to the main idea Iguess to avoid this the state would need the legal owner to file household occupancy and issue pass for each occupant wich would have a common DOC# maybe use the 911 address for filing and DOB code for proof of id i dont want anyone to loose out when looking at these suggestions we need to look at the idea not instanly who will loose out there are no problems just solutions for proper application think out side the box asume your a target allways and you may miss the important things.

[40dog]

This is about the mrp and changes to classification its all about money and it starts with reducing services the state just lobbies support from groups who want low impact then reasons it with some fluff once approved then the state will be able to cut maitinance costs for roads and other things dont be fooled everyone. this had began when the state stopped access a to indian lake years ago the hunters roared then so this time the gating was summer only then re open for hunt season they are just playing with you.

[redhawk]

Originally Posted by 40dog

This is about the mrp and changes to classification its all about money and it starts with reducing services the state just lobbies support from groups who want low impact then reasons it with some fluff once approved then the state will be able to cut maitinance costs for roads and other things dont be fooled everyone. this had began when the state stopped access a to indian lake years ago the hunters roared then so this time the gating was summer only then re open for hunt season they are just playing with you.

Yep, another government conspiracy. They've been planning this for years. Better to cut funds to education and police and fire then mess with our recreation.

Hawk

[dundee]

Originally Posted by 40dog

This is about the mrp and changes to classification its all about money and it starts with reducing services the state just lobbies support from groups who want low impact then reasons it with some fluff once approved then the state will be able to cut maitinance costs for roads and other things dont be fooled everyone. this had began when the state stopped access a to indian lake years ago the hunters roared then so this time the gating was summer only then re open for hunt season they are just playing with you.

I wish you would use proper puncuation.

[40dog]

dundee 2 things
1 i will try harder next time
2 do you know my wife she seems to say the same thing about my rants in writting

[rollinslover64]

Originally Posted by dundee

I wish you would use proper puncuation.

You forgot a T in punctuation

[dundee]

Originally Posted by rollinslover64

You forgot a T in punctuation

Yes, I know. I did that inentially.

[40dog]

last one for me.
way to go rollins . I think you just called out another elected offical covering there own tracks! Dundee sorry if the lack of punctuation makes for hard reading. Im having a hard time with the english language. You americans are allways making fun of us and its not required for my visa!!

[DSettahr]

Originally Posted by Peakbagr

"An opinion I formed on my own based on knowing someone rather involved in ADK, is all I'll say"

So someone told you...I've been an ADK committee chair for over 20 years thru a variety of Exec Directors. The organization is run by an Excecutive Committe of widely varying opinions and points of view and much of the club's work largely staffed by volunteers. Your second hand information is a description of a Club I don't recognize.

Would you mind elaborating some more for us, from your first hand information, what the club you do recognize looks like?

I ask because it's obvious from this thread alone, that there is a fair amount of dissatisfaction in the outdoor community in what the ADK appears to be as an environmental organization. Regardless of whether or not the ADK is the flawed organization some people view it to be, the simple fact that this conception is so largely prevalent in the community is a problem for the ADK, and stands as an obstacle to the ultimate success the ADK strives for in helping to protect and manage our wild lands.

I would be very interested to hear any insights you have to share about the ADK, not only for my own edification, but to help set the record straight, which is something that definitely needs to be done if what you say is correct.

My main question for you, since you apparently have experience in this area, is: How exactly is the ADK's "official" position on matters such as this decided?

[dundee]

Who said I'm an American?

[ALGonquin Bob]

Originally Posted by dundee

What D says is true. It gets liitle use and bikes have been on it for years.

ADK talks a lot, but does little. However, DEC & APA continue to chip away at Wilderness (fire towers, bike corridors, etc) and I wonder when they'll change something in an area that readers of this forum will really get pissed at.

On what do you base that observation? ADK, over 20,000 members strong, is a major force in protecting the forests that many of us spend our time in for recreation. The organization also does plenty of trail work in addition to contributing funds to the DEC work crews to maintain and improve the trails that we all use in the Adirondacks, Catskills, and other regions in New York State.

[DSettahr]

Originally Posted by ALGonquin Bob

On what do you base that observation? ADK, over 20,000 members strong, is a major force in protecting the forests that many of us spend our time in for recreation. The organization also does plenty of trail work in addition to contributing funds to the DEC work crews to maintain and improve the trails that we all use in the Adirondacks, Catskills, and other regions in New York State.

Excellent points. I think it's also worth mentioning too that (as I understand it) the DEC provides a lot of the funding for the ADK professional trail crew as well.

[ALGonquin Bob]

Originally Posted by redhawk

As for the ADK. I dropped my membership a long time ago because I found their priorities to be heavily weighted to the High P3eaks wilderness and peak baggers in general. I think their membership may have suffered in recent years because of their priorities and as a result that are getting more involved in other areas like the NPT, etc. I don't know if they still oppose saving the Duck Hole Dam. That turned a lot of people off to them.

Hawk

ADK has always been involved with the NPT, because they completed it in 1923, their second year of existance. The 90-year anniversary is approaching and you can expect some major trail work there, and there is a new NPT website on line now. Some ADK trail crews work under the direction of the DEC, and the emphasis there has not been focused on the high peaks to the extent that more work up there is still needed. Regarding your comment - naturally, if most of the use is on trails in the high peaks, most of the needed trail work will also be on those same trails. I have heard no recent discussion about the dam at Duck Hole, but if that area ended up looking more like Flowed Land, would that be so bad? NYS has been diverting money from the EPF for at least 9 years now, and there is little there to rebuild a dam.

[DSettahr]

Originally Posted by ALGonquin Bob

and the emphasis there has not been focused on the high peaks to the extent that more work up there is still needed

The ADK professional crew worked almost (if not completely) exclusively in the High Peaks this summer- although that was due more to lack of funding for transportation elsewhere, than due to a need for work.

Originally Posted by ALGonquin Bob

I have heard no recent discussion about the dam at Duck Hole, but if that area ended up looking more like Flowed Land, would that be so bad? NYS has been diverting money from the EPF for at least 9 years now, and there is little there to rebuild a dam.

While I support the restoration of the dam at Duck Hole, I think that (regardless of whether or not funds available through the EPF) EPF money is better spent elsewhere.

[ALGonquin Bob]

Originally Posted by DSettahr

I wonder- does the ADK ever poll it's member base before choosing a stance on issues like this? (Serious question) Sometimes I get the sense that opinions expressed by the ADK might not accurately reflect the views of the members of the organization as a whole.

Other than a small paid staff and trail maintenence crews (all non-voting), ADK is comprised of thousands of volunteers. The "ADK" you are likely referring to, the decision-making people, is the board of directors, a group of volunteer members representing all of the club's chapters throughout the state, as well as at-large members. Directors typically report back to their chapters and get input from them, so yes, ADK communicates with its member base. The BoD is a constant number of volunteers, but the individuals change from year to year. We are people who care about the same things that you care about. In fact, we are you, we are all of us. ADK members don't always agree on those important issues, but New York State is certaintly a better place because of that organization.