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  • One thing you hear some people say is there is no way puny man could emit enough CO2 to have an impact on something as big as the atmosphere. However, the so-called Oxygen Holocaust AKA the Oxygen Catastrophe, Oxygen Crisis was caused by cyanobacteria. They are even more puny (you can fit around 10,000 of them in a human cell) and yet they changed the atmosphere completely. At first the "pollution" they made (ie. oxygen, which is a highly toxic molecule and is never allowed to roam free inside of us) was absorbed by iron in the earth's crust but once that sink was saturated it began to build up. Then it changed life on earth forever and ever and ever......

    Recent research has shown that the Great Oxygenation Event triggered an explosive growth in the diversity of minerals on Earth. It is estimated that this event alone was directly responsible for more than 2,500 new minerals of the total of about 4,500 minerals found on Earth.

    Additionally the free oxygen reacted with the atmospheric methane, a greenhouse gas, reducing its concentration and thereby triggering the Huronian glaciation, possibly the longest snowball Earth episode.

    All of that caused by bacteria so small you could fit thousands of them on the head of a pin.

    I know it isn't very scientific but intuitively it makes me think that humans' CO2 production with all of our internal combustion engines, coal and natural gas burning (along with methane production form our beef cattle) just might add up to something. Maybe not, but if it doesn't make a person at least wonder then what will?
    Last edited by Neil; 04-17-2014, 03:31 PM.
    The best, the most successful adventurer, is the one having the most fun.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Neil View Post
      All of that caused by bacteria so small you could fit thousands of them on the head of a pin.
      Imagine if they had all been driving teeny little SUVs.
      Last edited by randomscooter; 04-17-2014, 07:16 PM.
      Scooting here and there
      Through the woods and up the peaks
      Random Scoots awaits (D.P.)


      "Pushing the limits of easy."™

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Troy64 View Post
        I still have not seen any proof that man made CO2 negatively effects the climate.
        I'm sorry, I find that hard to believe. In my 72 years on this earth, I have observed significant changes in the climate and the environment which has increased proportionately to population growth and increased industry. The only possible conclusion one could logically reach is that the changes are caused by human activity.

        Originally posted by Troy64 View Post
        We really have no idea of what is normal when it comes to the climate, because the climate has proven to vary drastically over extremely long periods. We could be in a normal and gradual cooling trend or a normal and gradual warming trend.
        Many here have said that you can't base a judgement without a long term diagnosis, how then can the changes be so radical in such a relatively short time if they were natural. It doesn't take a degree to come to a conclusion.
        Originally posted by Troy64 View Post
        Resources should be used wisely, but that does not mean we should artificially quadruple energy costs to appease a vocal minority that bases their judgement on fiction.
        Actually the Vocal Minority are the ones who deny global warming. Most scientists overwhelmingly believe in Global Warming and polls show that most people also believe climate change is taking place. The big dollars and the PR to disprove global warming has come from the energy and manufacturing people who are worried about profits. So Climate change is NOT fiction, in fact even those who spend much money and effort to try to debunk global warming have now had to asmit it does exist. However now they are denying it is caused by human action.

        Originally posted by Troy64 View Post
        I am very wary of anyone saying we should do something quick, without a full and comprehensive vetting. Every time the "hurry up and pass the law quick" crowd gets their way, everyone suffers and is much worse. That is one "model" that has been proven time and time again.
        Do something quick? The case for global warming started back in the 50's. That's over 60 years ago and nothing significant has been done to date.
        Originally posted by Troy64 View Post
        I still maintain that a slow and gradual transition to renewable and sustainable energy sources is our best course of action.
        Probably right. Any movement on that end would be a start. Unfortunately the longer we wait, the longer the damage. Humans have two major thinking flaws. The first is that "it can't happen to us" and the second is "if it does happen we can fix it". There are civilizations that have ceased to exist by that thinking and we seem to be determined to join them.
        "If future generations are to remember us with gratitude rather than contempt, we must leave them more than the miracles of technology. We must leave them a glimpse of the world as it was in the beginning, not just after we got through with it." Lyndon B. Johnson

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Neil View Post
          One thing you hear some people say is there is no way puny man could emit enough CO2 to have an impact on something as big as the atmosphere. However, the so-called Oxygen Holocaust AKA the Oxygen Catastrophe, Oxygen Crisis was caused by cyanobacteria. They are even more puny (you can fit around 10,000 of them in a human cell) and yet they changed the atmosphere completely. At first the "pollution" they made (ie. oxygen, which is a highly toxic molecule and is never allowed to roam free inside of us) was absorbed by iron in the earth's crust but once that sink was saturated it began to build up. Then it changed life on earth forever and ever and ever......

          Recent research has shown that the Great Oxygenation Event triggered an explosive growth in the diversity of minerals on Earth. It is estimated that this event alone was directly responsible for more than 2,500 new minerals of the total of about 4,500 minerals found on Earth.

          Additionally the free oxygen reacted with the atmospheric methane, a greenhouse gas, reducing its concentration and thereby triggering the Huronian glaciation, possibly the longest snowball Earth episode.

          All of that caused by bacteria so small you could fit thousands of them on the head of a pin.

          I know it isn't very scientific but intuitively it makes me think that humans' CO2 production with all of our internal combustion engines, coal and natural gas burning (along with methane production form our beef cattle) just might add up to something. Maybe not, but if it doesn't make a person at least wonder then what will?
          Isn't it amazing that in most cases humans are so full of themselves they think they can do anything, yet they would deny that their actions would impact nature in a negative way??
          "If future generations are to remember us with gratitude rather than contempt, we must leave them more than the miracles of technology. We must leave them a glimpse of the world as it was in the beginning, not just after we got through with it." Lyndon B. Johnson

          Comment


          • "Isn't it amazing that in most cases humans are so full of themselves they think they can do anything, yet they would deny that their actions would impact nature in a negative
            way??" - Redhawk

            Actually after involving myself in considerable research lately I am not so sure that the "greenhouse effect" doesn't exist. I am beginning to lean toward a view that we humans ARE and have been responsible for negative outcomes from our neglect of our environment and our tendency to put comfort and profit before ecology.

            I have become aware of tactics on both sides which jaundice my impression of campaigns to change how people think about this topic based on selfishness and greed, and manipulation of the facts yet despite these attempts I see no harm in trying to get people to change how they do business when it relates to possible further damage of our planet.

            However, getting another source of energy other than fossil fuels is not going to be easy
            as the companies which control these sources are well entrenched and make huge profits from the present infrastructure. Here are some suggestions:

            Convert coal to syngas and separate the byproducts which cause pollution and channel them to containment and other safe uses. Use more natural gas in our vehicles. Develop more nuclear power. Develop hydrogen as a fuel.

            Feed beano to beef cattle to limit methane production in their systems, (yeah right).

            Run vehicles on pure ethanol made only from non-food sources or produce more sugar beets. I'll bet you didn't know that today's ethanol friendly vehicles can and will run on 80% ethanol and 20% water IF there is absolutely NO gasoline involved.

            Stop or limit deforestation in the world and plant more trees.

            Stop fighting over whether humans are responsible for pollution and start doing something to halt it. Use bio-gasification reactors as alternate fuel sources. I have been
            involved in research (out of U.of California, Berkeley) which utilizes a reactor that burns wood chips to make producer gas which will run generators. In ten years we have
            achieved a high percentage of efficiency with this process without contributing to
            pollution. I'll provide the link in case you are interested. Many years ago farmers ran
            their tractors on a device similar to this but now we have refined the process to the
            point where we can run 100kw generators on natural waste products with positive outcomes.

            So does it matter whether we are in majority agreement as far as causal relationships as long as we are committed to finding more ecological means of providing for our mutual needs? So Mr. Redhawk, stop being so negative and have a little more faith in your fellow man.
            Never Argue With An Idiot. They Will Drag You Down To Their Level And Beat You With Experience.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Schultzz View Post
              However, getting another source of energy other than fossil fuels is not going to be easy as the companies which control these sources are well entrenched and make huge profits from the present infrastructure. Here are some suggestions:
              And don't forget the one, and perhaps only one, that will provide all the energy we need - no, want - with a zero carbon footprint:

              http://pandoraspromise.com/

              It's about time that we blew away all the smoke, the distortion, the lies, and the hysteria, and started a rational national discussion on it.
              Scooting here and there
              Through the woods and up the peaks
              Random Scoots awaits (D.P.)


              "Pushing the limits of easy."™

              Comment


              • This graph of the last 10,000 years needs to be updated ,but according to the latest estimates our current world temperature is approaching that of the Medieval Warm Period.



                One thing I wonder about is that if their temperatures were at least as great as ours then presumably they too would have experienced all of the extremes that the scientists are predicting for today.

                Redhawk ,what was the weather like back then?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by randomscooter View Post
                  And don't forget the one, and perhaps only one, that will provide all the energy we need - no, want - with a zero carbon footprint:.
                  Agreed, it's time to cull out the unnecessary things in our lives, like driving long distances to stay at Random Scoots cabin.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by backwoodsman View Post
                    Agreed, it's time to cull out the unnecessary things in our lives, like driving long distances to stay at Random Scoots cabin.
                    how would you define long distance?

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by randomscooter View Post
                      And don't forget the one, and perhaps only one, that will provide all the energy we need - no, want - with a zero carbon footprint:

                      http://pandoraspromise.com/

                      It's about time that we blew away all the smoke, the distortion, the lies, and the hysteria, and started a rational national discussion on it.
                      +1. Absolutely. See also:



                      and



                      The Thorium reactor was demonstrated safely and successfully in the 1960s, but the US moved away from this technology principally because it was not an efficient way to make bomb material, whereas Uranium reactors are good at making bomb material. That's an unfortunate history that can be corrected, if people can be educated. India and China are racing ahead with this technology while the US ignores it; in fact the current "administration" is actively giving our Thorium technology to the Chinese.

                      The other sad history is the success of the blind "anti-nuclear" movement, which of course has its roots in the Soviet disinformation campaign. These "useful idiots" have for all intents and purposes demolished our ability to pursue nuclear energy.

                      As I've said on other threads, I still believe solar photovoltaic is the eventual solution, but it's currently completely unable to supply our needs. I estimate it will take approximately 100 years to overcome VERY challenging physics and technology issues and get to effective solar. In the meantime, we should be pursuing Thorium as a urgent program, with an eye to getting a significant contribution from it within 5 years.

                      This is what we should be working on; not getting all in a lather about whether a little CO2 is melting the glaciers. It may well be, but we're wasting a lot of time on that when we should be pursuing better solutions.

                      (Of course the "believers" are already attacking the potential of Thorium, revealing their true agenda. If Tony Stark invented the "arc reactor" tomorrow, and we had limitless energy, these guys would still try to find something wrong with it, because their real agenda is to enrich themselves and their buddies like old Al has done.)

                      Comment


                      • From what I've read Thorium has promise but a start up if approved in the U.S., would take 10 to 20 years for a variety of reasons. So yes, we should start on this sooner rather than later. You are correct that the governments choice in fuels was geared to those that could be weaponized.
                        “Once there were brook trout in the streams in the mountains. They smelled of moss in your hand. On their backs were vermiculate patterns that were maps of the world in its becoming. Maps and mazes. Of a thing which could not be put back. Not be made right again. In the deep glens where they lived all things were older than man and they hummed of mystery.”
                        ― Cormac McCarthy

                        Comment


                        • Thanks, Glen.

                          I think if we have the will, we could do better. 20 months would be my goal; pull out all the stops. The reasons for the 10-20 years are not technical but political.

                          (There was an old science fiction movie from the 50s where the earth was going to be destroyed by an asteroid. There was a project to build ships to get off earth and colonize some other planet (can't remember which one). The reason I mention it is that in one scene, engineers are working on some kind of design, and there is a poster on the wall behind them that says "Time is our most valuable resource. Waste anything, except time.")

                          If we took a "Manhattan Project" approach we could have Thorium nuclear on line in 5 years, and start cutting way down on coal, oil and gas. Again, I don't buy the "settled science" argument for AGW, but there are other and better reasons to stop burning these materials.

                          Comment


                          • "This is what we should be working on; not getting all in a lather about whether a little CO2 is melting the glaciers. It may well be, but we're wasting a lot of time on that when we should be pursuing better solutions."

                            Part of the problem to overcome to get started on a better solution to our energy needs comes from the back and forth argument for which we have seen right here on this forum. Whether intentional or not it has become a tactic for doing nothing and deciding nothing. Thorium reactors do have some drawbacks concerning safety issues not saying that they could not be overcome or solved with more research but research takes money and right now we are basically broke. I believe that the current administration's attempts at producing new energy sources are a "smoke screen" (please excuse the pun.) Wind generators are very expensive and are currently subsidized by our own government. They often break down and/or are affected by a number of factors which require them to stop production to rectify the problem. Would you believe people shoot at the blades (like a shooting gallery), birds and ice and dirt slow down and stop productivity.

                            Solar energy takes time to amortize the initial investment which most folks cannot now afford. Coal is cheap and plentiful but burning it without the use of scrubbers and reactors to filter out the hazardous by-products produces pollution (the three "p's") which adds to our current problem. So you see it is not an overnight solution especially with an administration which offers no real initiative to solve the problem. Many people rely on coal production for their livelihoods and deeply resent those who would take it away overnight.
                            Last edited by Schultzz; 04-18-2014, 08:31 PM.
                            Never Argue With An Idiot. They Will Drag You Down To Their Level And Beat You With Experience.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Schultzz View Post
                              So Mr. Redhawk, stop being so negative and have a little more faith in your fellow man.
                              I would love to. Unfortunately my fellow man has has given no reason to have faith. On the contrary, more and more his actions have given me less hope. It will take what it always takes to do anything, Get to the point where the results of our actions are devastating, and then the naysayers will blame the proponents by saying the warning was too late or that they should have pointed out how severe the consequences would be so something would have been done. The conservatives will blame the liberals, the democrats will blame the Republicans, the rich will blame the poor and people of color. America will blame China, the Russians will blame the Capitalists and Homeland Security will blame the terrorists.
                              "If future generations are to remember us with gratitude rather than contempt, we must leave them more than the miracles of technology. We must leave them a glimpse of the world as it was in the beginning, not just after we got through with it." Lyndon B. Johnson

                              Comment


                              • Okay. Have it your way. But you were the one who told me not to maintain a hopeless attitude. Perhaps putting your faith in your fellow man will only lead to more disappointment. I am still hopeful that good outcomes will prevail. I wish you were too. You're an interesting person and I hope you stay around here for a long time and enjoy your health and happiness and our great Adirondacks.
                                Never Argue With An Idiot. They Will Drag You Down To Their Level And Beat You With Experience.

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