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  • nys: coyote/coywolf contests

    much more education is required for a creature who helps to prevent tick borne diseases like lyme disease and other bacterial infections - sometime difficult to cure if not detected in time. some of these diseases go undiagnosed completely while other maladies are blamed.
    then to add insult and ignorance to injury these creatures are killed based upon assumptions, rumors and false information.
    I personally know hunters who leave the woods immediately when they get one tick on their clothing. yet they still support the unnecessary killing the nemesis of tick vectors (e.g., small rodents) en masse.


    Give a man/woman or child a fish or meat and feed them for a day. Teach them how to fish or hunt and feed them for a lifetime - and they'll never forget you.

    My photos cannot be used without my written permission.

  • #2
    Fear and ignorance is the cause for prejudice. Education is the answer to those who choose to listen. The Coyote is not the enemy.

    This contest is embarrassing. Any contest where you have to kill in numbers to get a trophy is morally wrong methinks. There needs to be a label for the conscientious environmentalist who also hunts. The label "hunter" is one that includes groups that view nature with a different perspective than myself.
    "A culture is no better than its woods." W.H. Auden

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    • #3
      another report from Vermont today.

      Give a man/woman or child a fish or meat and feed them for a day. Teach them how to fish or hunt and feed them for a lifetime - and they'll never forget you.

      My photos cannot be used without my written permission.

      Comment


      • #4
        I like your teach a man/woman to fish bit. I once saw a parody of this: "Build a man a fire and he's warm for the evening. Set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life!"

        Had to laugh.

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        • #5
          I've never hunted in a contest, and I don't know that I ever would, but these guys are hunters (regardless of whether or not you like their motivations), there is fair chase, and coyotes are extremely well established in the northeast (to the point where no amount of hunting contests are going to threaten their population).

          They play a key role in our local ecosystem, especially when it comes to controlling smaller game and rodents. But just like any other game species, there needs to be a balanced management approach. Other than human hunters, there is very little controlling the coyote numbers. And their growing population has started to affect other species, like fox and deer. And before anyone else chimes in with the "coyote don't kill many deer" argument....they do go after the fawn quite a bit in the spring and have been known to take down adult-sized deer (though not as frequently).

          I consider myself a "conscientious environmentalist hunter" and while this type of hunting isn't my cup of tea, I have no problem with it, so long as there are proper DEC oversight and regulations in place to ensure the coyote population stays healthy...which there are.

          Also, keep in mind that while people with an outside perspective may view this as pointless and wasteful hunting, coyote fur has a decent market demand, so a lot of coyote hunters (competition or otherwise) do use parts of the coyote after the kill.

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          • #6
            Bounder, A lucid, well written response.

            I believe that the coyote population is self-controlling. I am not worried that said contest is going to decimate the population. It is the way coyotes are demonized and are placed in a category apart from nature that distresses me.

            As far as them preying on deer...I like my woods as wild as possible, I like my deer wild as possible not pasteurized.
            I honestly didn't consider the fur harvest and it is far more humane, methinks, to dispatch a yote with a bullet than a trap.
            Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against fur trappers as they take on the role of our lost predators.
            Except for the trapper who trapped out my favorite meadow of beaver. That place was looking sweet, the transformation was fun to watch.

            Walking back to camp in the dark, suddenly hearing a pack of coyotes howl, the hair on the back of your neck stands up, you just made contact with your primordial ancestors, you are suddenly more aware, more conscious, more alive.
            "A culture is no better than its woods." W.H. Auden

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Bounder45 View Post
              I've never hunted in a contest, and I don't know that I ever would, but these guys are hunters (regardless of whether or not you like their motivations), there is fair chase, and coyotes are extremely well established in the northeast (to the point where no amount of hunting contests are going to threaten their population).

              They play a key role in our local ecosystem, especially when it comes to controlling smaller game and rodents. But just like any other game species, there needs to be a balanced management approach. Other than human hunters, there is very little controlling the coyote numbers. And their growing population has started to affect other species, like fox and deer. And before anyone else chimes in with the "coyote don't kill many deer" argument....they do go after the fawn quite a bit in the spring and have been known to take down adult-sized deer (though not as frequently).

              I consider myself a "conscientious environmentalist hunter" and while this type of hunting isn't my cup of tea, I have no problem with it, so long as there are proper DEC oversight and regulations in place to ensure the coyote population stays healthy...which there are.

              Also, keep in mind that while people with an outside perspective may view this as pointless and wasteful hunting, coyote fur has a decent market demand, so a lot of coyote hunters (competition or otherwise) do use parts of the coyote after the kill.


              You said it and I agree "Pointless" or actually detrimental. Coywolves will self regulate their own territory (pushing out rivals). When their shot by some hunter then a new younger less experienced animal moves in. Having not yet learned to leave that farm alone or stay away from this or that. (The older established pairs learn that overtime). When allowed to "live" (seems strange to have to say that) Mature adults mark and protect their own established territories of 10 plus square miles. Everyone is better off when they are left alone. Remember this is really about people trying to make a buck (the new god) looking to talk the public into this sort of thing. When people like yourself "lawfully and respectfully hunt specific species (deer, turkey) in a regulated fashion to feed their family or to protect livestock during an actual predator attack then - I can understand although I do not hunt (unless in an emergency - since my fridge has food). I respect the animals "right to live" and other peoples right to admire them -alive. Having a bunch of people with a contest to see how many they can kill of a species, "especially' predators without a reason provided earlier to me says they shouldn't be allowed to carry a firearm because there is clearly a lack of reasoning, empathy & wisdom. Mother Nature doesnt need to be balanced by humans - the opposite is true (she finds balance without our interference), The Coywolves own their coats they need them. That sort of thing is just Murdering them because because someone likes the fur in my opinion. If it was 1750 and you needed a coat to survive then one could have an argument. Today thats just more tons of toxic lead in our forests and watersheds toxifying the environment. More wonderful adirondack autumn days ruined by the constant crack crack crack of loud youngsters playing at war without actually enlisting in the military. The best thing I suggest is more Adirondackers travel to Baxter Park in Maine where there is no hunting in that quadrant (only in surrounding ares). You will instantly see a bounty of wildlife Moose, Deer, Bear etc etc Although we have all of those here in the Adirondacks not in that level of animal density, and of course they are all scared to death of humans for obvious reasons. My hope would be one day we would see the Adirondacks in a different way then people do today, Instead of a "resource" like a grocery store for our huge population we would see the region as a - biological life boat. With the state if the world today, they and we need it.
              Last edited by adk; 02-10-2017, 01:41 PM.
              The more wilderness in the Adirondacks, the better.

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              • #8
                The main way mother nature controls predator populations is through starvation and disease, which while natural, is probably not something that any of us want to deal with (whether we hunt or take photos).

                I've seen and heard coyotes out in the wild. They certainly do bring their own element to the NY landscape, and I'm glad we have them. So I don't want them wiped out, and I highly doubt most dedicated predator hunters would want that either...for the simple reason of if they get wiped out, they would have nothing left to hunt.

                Coyote contests seem popular out in the rural areas, where people tend to have a more practical view of coyote management. And I think a few elements factor in to why coyote hunting and contests are becoming so popular out there:
                - Coyotes are well-populated and very resilient (both as individuals and a population) with looser regulations relative to other game. Many farmers are looking to keep their numbers in check, so land access is rarely a hindrance. So coyote hunting is a bit more accessible than other forms of hunting, especially for people who are new to hunting.
                - Their pelts can fetch a half decent price depending on the quality and the season, so there is some financial incentive there.
                - They can become an issue for livestock (and pets) if left unchecked. Hunting is viewed as part of an overarching conservation strategy (which includes fencing, trapping, guardian dogs and other methods) that aims to discourage predation.

                I've talked with a few ranchers/farmers here in NY and out west. Out west is quickly becoming a whole different story as grizzlies and wolves bring a level of predator activity that we just aren't used to here in the east. Most of those I talked weren't big into predator hunting themselves (mostly because they're too busy with work) but were accepting, if not outright welcoming, of predator (coyote) hunters. I suppose like everything else, our perceptions of coyotes will vary depending on where we are and what we do for a living.


                Originally posted by adk View Post
                The best thing I suggest is more Adirondackers travel to Baxter Park in Maine where there is no hunting in that quadrant (only in surrounding ares). You will instantly see a bounty of wildlife Moose, Deer, Bear etc etc Although we have all of those here in the Adirondacks not in that level of animal density, and of course they are all scared to death of humans for obvious reasons.
                I'm not going to respond to any of your points about the morality (or supposed lack thereof) regarding predator and sport hunting. I have my own views on that topic, and I know enough about some of the personalities on this forum that I realize no amount of "discussion" is going to change some people's opinions.

                On the issue of animal density in the ADK's compared to Baxter (in Maine) I will say that hunting is not the reason there is such a huge discrepancy in animal densities. Logging is.

                Maine has many active and former working forests, with more opened up areas which promote more vegetation and natural plant life that rodents, upland bird, small game, deer and even bear will feed on. The ADK's, by comparison, has more mature forests and less opened up areas (generally-speaking).

                I agree the ADK's wildlife density is smaller compared to Maine and other areas. I've bushwhacked into some pretty remote areas of the ADK's for hunting and camping trips. I promise you that very few hunters in the ADk's are going into those remote areas for game. It's a whole lot of effort and risk, for what is often times very little reward (other than the experience of being outside of course).
                Last edited by Bounder45; 02-09-2017, 06:02 PM.

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                • #9
                  I've never hunted in a contest but I have gone coyote hunting, or for whatever biological species variation we may have here in North Country. I've hunted them on my own property. I used to despise coyotes but as I've aged I've come to respect them as both part of the ecosystem and a game species. Farmers, who would never allow you to hunt deer or turkeys on their farms welcome coyote hunters with open arms for obvious reasons. As for the fur market, I have seen some sales figures from this year and a few of them have higher than expected prices. They're posted on the NYS Trappers Association website.

                  I'm no expert but I do feel that hunting and trapping do keep numbers in check, but only on a temporary basis. I agree with one study I read about that said even if you eradicate an entire local population within 2-5 years it will repopulate if a desired food source is present. One desired food source is deer in any vulnerable form and not just fawns. I just got a trail camera photo of a doe being chased by a coyote deep in the Wilcox Lake Wilderness.

                  I understand the emotion some have towards hunting predators. I also understand the role hunting and trapping play in keeping populations in check.
                  Life's short, hunt hard!

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                  • #10
                    I find the reasoning for it more pitiful excuses by those looking to rational it.

                    Population control? This hunt will have zero effect and could cause a spike in population.

                    Pelt sales? Eastern coyote pelts are the bottom of the barrel. A NY coyote pelt would be fortunate to bring $20-$25 (Alberta pelts fetch 3x that). I don't know about you but I'm not fiddling with a coyote pelt for $20.

                    Worried about livestock? Don't be birthing calfs out in the back forty. Only a lazy man does that. Bring the cow into the barn or yard where you can watch it. For sheep fence your big field into smaller parcels so your guard dog can watch them better.

                    Pets. Keep your cat indoors where it's not killing songbirds. Do you know how many morons out there shoot a roaming cat? And get it neutered.

                    Don't leave your dog tied up outside to a dog box. Build a proper kennel for it.

                    Finally if coyotes had such an impact on deer than why are there more deer after coyotes moved in than at any time previously?
                    Izaak Walton a great writer? He can't even spell COMPLETE.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Gman View Post
                      I find the reasoning for it more pitiful excuses by those looking to rational it.

                      Population control? This hunt will have zero effect and could cause a spike in population.

                      Pelt sales? Eastern coyote pelts are the bottom of the barrel. A NY coyote pelt would be fortunate to bring $20-$25 (Alberta pelts fetch 3x that). I don't know about you but I'm not fiddling with a coyote pelt for $20.

                      Worried about livestock? Don't be birthing calfs out in the back forty. Only a lazy man does that. Bring the cow into the barn or yard where you can watch it. For sheep fence your big field into smaller parcels so your guard dog can watch them better.

                      Pets. Keep your cat indoors where it's not killing songbirds. Do you know how many morons out there shoot a roaming cat? And get it neutered.

                      Don't leave your dog tied up outside to a dog box. Build a proper kennel for it.

                      Finally if coyotes had such an impact on deer than why are there more deer after coyotes moved in than at any time previously?

                      Well written, great points all the way around.
                      The more wilderness in the Adirondacks, the better.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Yet another wildlife post stuffed with a "logging commercial". Lets just stick with the given topic having this post turn into logging industry propaganda is not useful. Mother nature does great "without" being carved up for cash. Sighting examples of huge feilds of blueberry bushes in a mowed down forest isn't going to change that. Baxter is not a big logging area, it was protected so it did not become one like the surroundig region. "That" itself is what benefited the wildlife - Old growth forests are as much about the moisture on the forest floor as they are about ancient relationships between plants and mycelium. Truck tire ruts and a bunch of similar species the same age and calling it a "managed forest" is "not" the biological lifeboat we are referring too. Hopefully those that care about natural biodiversity and understand the importance of the predator prey roles in nature are the ones who help protect the integrity of the adirondacks. When the concerns are only economic then why live in the back country?
                        The more wilderness in the Adirondacks, the better.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Gman View Post
                          Population control? This hunt will have zero effect and could cause a spike in population.
                          That's depends on your concept of population control. In the long term, coyotes are very capable of maintaining and even growing their population when under casual pressure. In the short term, taking a few coyotes out in the mid to late winter does mean that there are a few less hungry mouths around when the spring birthing season occurs, which takes some pressure off deer and livestock alike.

                          This is why coyote hunting is generally accepted by farmers, who sometimes are even willing to pay for hunters' and trappers' services (it's usually the other way around for hunting other types of species on private land).


                          Originally posted by Gman View Post
                          Pelt sales? Eastern coyote pelts are the bottom of the barrel. A NY coyote pelt would be fortunate to bring $20-$25 (Alberta pelts fetch 3x that). I don't know about you but I'm not fiddling with a coyote pelt for $20.
                          This auction sheet is a year old at this point, but I've heard that market demand this year is similar to what it was last year: http://www.nafa.ca/wp-content/upload...ull-Report.pdf

                          A good eastern coyote pelt can fetch $60, a top-notch one can fetch almost $100. It's a market demand that has its ups and downs; as of late the prices have been half-decent.

                          Originally posted by Gman View Post
                          Worried about livestock? Don't be birthing calfs out in the back forty. Only a lazy man does that. Bring the cow into the barn or yard where you can watch it. For sheep fence your big field into smaller parcels so your guard dog can watch them better.
                          Not every rancher or farmer can afford to bring their livestock in to a centralized location. A lot of cattle and sheep ranches grass-feed their animals and rely on remote pasture rotation to keep the animals healthy. And even if birthing takes place within a barn, the young animals are still vulnerable for a period of time following their birth.

                          Guard dogs have become more prevalent and popular over the years, but when the coyote packs get big enough and bold enough, it is not unheard of for those dogs to get targeted as well.

                          Originally posted by Gman View Post
                          Pets. Keep your cat indoors where it's not killing songbirds. Do you know how many morons out there shoot a roaming cat? And get it neutered.

                          Don't leave your dog tied up outside to a dog box. Build a proper kennel for it.
                          I think most people living in the countryside know how to manage their pets. But when you have coyotes harassing or even attacking pets at your back door or while out on a walk, I see that as an indicator that local population has gotten a bit too bold. I don't hear about that happening here in NY too much, but those kinds of incidents are not unheard of in some of the western states and parts of Canada where coyote numbers are very high.

                          Like I said earlier, I don't thinking hunting is the sole solution to coyote issues, but rather is part of an overall patch-work of strategies (some of which you mentioned).

                          Originally posted by Gman View Post
                          Finally if coyotes had such an impact on deer than why are there more deer after coyotes moved in than at any time previously?
                          Deer #'s have grown consistently over the last several decades due to a combination of factors:
                          - Regulated hunting seasons, as opposed to unregulated hunting which has led to decline and extirpation in the past.
                          - An abundance of farm fields which support high deer #'s.
                          - Better management practices by both state agencies and private landowners who are better informed on how to promote wildlife habitation.

                          In fact, many scientists estimate that the deer #'s we have now far surpass the #'s that existed at the time of European colonization...a lot of that has to do with there being more prime deer habitat (farm fields mixed with forested areas).
                          Last edited by Bounder45; 02-10-2017, 02:17 PM.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Gman View Post
                            Finally if coyotes had such an impact on deer than why are there more deer after coyotes moved in than at any time previously?
                            I'm not sure where there's more deer now than there were previously. Perhaps the Southern Zone? But, this is an Adirondack forum and up here my experience is that whitetail populations fluctuate. I can only speak for our own group but in the three spots we hunt more 'yotes equates to fewer deer (and turkeys), especially at a spot I hunt in the Northern ADKs. I know two very well-respected hunters who have kept journals since the 1950s and their experience and data shows the same. We hunters have all learned to live with this but will choose whitetails over coyotes. Others obviously feel differently and that is their right, also.
                            Life's short, hunt hard!

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                            • #15
                              Lots of conflicting information Bounder. This is going to an area not related to the post but so many inaccuracies in your post that need correcting.

                              I believe you have cattle raising here confused with Texas or out west somewhere.

                              Just about all cattle in this part of North America are winter or spring calved. Cattle in the field are fed over winter. Usually hay because we have lots of it. Cattle do poor outside here winter as opposed to out west. Its the dampness.

                              You put out two Great Pyrenees with a flock of sheep in an enclosure they can watch and you will have little problems with coyotes.

                              I don't know why you think rural people have a better understanding of how to keep their pets. They are among the worst pet abusers. Suggest to a farmer to get his barn cats neutered? He'd laugh his head off.

                              My father (who is 85 and still hunts coyotes) said they got roughly $30 each last year. Some brought more, some less. You better know how to prep the hide and shot pelts are not the same as a trapped pelt.

                              Buckladd, I was speaking of the population in general. In the ADK's according to the DEC the numbers are at least stable now but far greater than in the past. There is concern about the maturing forest in the ADK's. According to the DEC coyotes have little impact on the deer population.
                              Izaak Walton a great writer? He can't even spell COMPLETE.

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