Northville Placid Trail Run 2005

[Tim Seaver]

I plan on attempting the NPT as a trail run sometime next month, and was wondering if anyone knows of previous running attempts ( other than the 40 hour "hike" in 1973 mentioned in the NPT guide.) I am hoping to do it in roughly 28-32 hours. Any info would be appreciated.

[sacco]

yowsers!

if you're lookin for a partner mtngoat might be interested. can't say for certain, i don't know him well but he's the only guy i've ever met that might be up for something like this.
wouldn't surprise me if he's even looked into it himself.

[mtn.goat]

That sounds like fun but I'm going to be running in the Wakely Dam Ultra on July 23rd and I'm still nursing an injury (thankfully fixed by a visit to the chiropractor). I was thinking of doing the whole trail in September when the bugs have died down in 3-4 days but don't think I'm (or I should say my body) is prepared for 133mi of running/hiking in one bout. If you do end up doing it you should start looking at some of the 100mi ultras that are run all over the US. They're in the same league and are organized races. Good luck!

[Tim Seaver]

Have fun at the Wakely Dam Ultra (http://www.wakelydam.com/index.html) , mtn goat - it's a great race run by a very dedicated crew, in a beautiful setting. (Running in the Wakely event last year was actually what inspired me to attempt the entire NPT as a solo venture.)
I don't know if I will be recovered in time to run the Wakely this year, but am keeping my fingers crossed. Happy Trails!

[mrbubbles]

I'd be interested in doing a portion of it. I can also spot water, honey, peanuts or whatever for you if you want.
I recently ran Greylock in Western MA!!
http://www.runwmac.com/gt2005/greylock-trail2005.html
I belong to a club with a lot of hardcore trail runners in the Albany area, called the
Albany Running Exchange
http://www.albanyrunningexchange.org
A number of them are training for Indian Ladder and Escarpment.

[southernadkhiker]

I was just at Geylock in the fall, did you run up the road or trail. Either way, that's a tough run.

[uberTurtle]

I've eyed that trail up over the past couple of years for a run, but am just not at that level, yet. The 40 hour mark mentioned in the guide book has always stuck in my head as the time to beat. Set a record on a new trail and Cave Dog might make it back this way.........

Best of luck. If you need any support along the way, prior to July 18th, let me know. There are certainly some good road crossings there for access.

[RC]

I had plans to do it in 2 or 3 days in September, but have put that plan off until 2006 because of your son who will be 1 year old next month. I've did a large amount of training in the Benson/mud lake area last fall and if the rest of the trail is in that kind of shape a 28-32 hour trip will be very hard. From silver lake to mud lake there is a large amount of blow downs. I've gone from Benson to mud lake and back out in 7+ hours. I think the distance was just about 27miles. I've done 30 miles on the trails in rockwood in 3:30 hours so that shows what the trail is like between Benson and Mud lake.


RC

[Tim Seaver]

mrbubbles and uberturtle, thanks for the support offers - as things come together I may PM you !

Thanks for your input RC - The more of the trail I scout, the more I realize that my 28-32 hr. mark is going to be very tough to achieve, although I have found most of the trail to be pretty sweet running. If my feet hold together, I am pretty sure I can best the 40 hour mark, but maybe not by such a margin - so many things can go wrong with support and transitions, not to mention fatigue, night travel, water crossings, etc. I am aiming for a 3.8-4.8 mph overall average - the trick for me is going to be taking it easy for the first 60 miles or so and keeping my feet happy. A low humidity day with temps below 80 is what we will be praying for (no fixed dates here!)

Two weekends ago I did the section between NY8 and the terminus at Northville, - it took me about 7 1/2 hours to cover that 32.5 miles, including the blowdowns ( which I really didn't find that bad) - this includes the 10+ miles of road the end. Most of the trail is in much better shape than the Mud Lake area, or at least what I have seen so far.

This past Sunday I did the 36 mile section from Lake Placid to the Long Lake (Tarbell Rd.) in 9 1/2 hours at a pretty mellow pace, and that includes the 75 yard thrash/swim somewhere between Shattuck Clearing and Plumey's Point.

I've done the 32 mile Wakely Dam to Piseco section in 5.05 hours, but that probably won't happen this time around :) Probably more like 7.5 here.

Those three sections, ran separately, add up to 24.5 hours, which would leave 7.5 hours for the 30+ assorted miles remaining and still be under 32 hrs.

Of course, it probably won't work out quite so neatly because of all the other factors I mentioned, but we are going to give it our best shot.

I'll let the board know when we have a "GO" condition.

[Tim Seaver]

I have finished scouting the entire route, and should be within about 10 days of the attempt. Most of the trail is in great shape, despite the usual blowdowns, wet spots, and overgrown sections.

I am trying to track down Richard Denker ( who did the NPT on 1973 in 40 hours) to find out what his starting and finishing points were. My questions are:

Did he start/end from the center of Lake Placid village ( the original end, correct?) , at the Averyville/Military road, or at the Chubb River Bridge?

Did he start/end at the Godfrey Road or do the 10 miles to/from Northville?

I would appreciate any information anyone might have on his journey, or any contact info. I would like very much to do the same mileage ( I will be going North to South)

One correction to my earlier post - there IS a way to avoid the "swim" near Plumey's Point, I had simply missed the markers for the bushwhack, which are easy to miss going southbound - there is a small rotten log down in the trail about 75 yards before hitting the water's edge ( southbound) - if you look to the right here you will see two dark blue ribbons on some small saplings where the bushwhack heads into the woods - it makes an arc to the right, about a 4 minute bushwhack to rejoin the trail at the other side.

One other "bushwhack" ( actually a re-lo) not to miss is south of Stephens Pond, but this one is clearly marked with three red ribbons hanging from a tree that is leaning over the trail - this one heads left ( southbound) into the woods, following sparse new blue markers and red ribbons and arcing back to the trail at the other side of the beaver activity.

[Tim Seaver]

Weather and other details permitting, we will be making the attempt on Tuesday July 12, starting in Lake Placid at roughly 9-10 am and hopefully finishing up before nightfall on Wednesday at the Northville bridge. If we have a hotel with a phone line, and my "team" ( my wife, 2 year old son, and running partner) has time between all the crazy driving around, they will post updates as we are able. Thanks to all for the encouragement and offers to help! (cross posted to adkhighpeaks.com)

[Mavs00]

GO TIM, GO

I PM'd you as well :)

[RC]

Good Luck. I'll send some energy your way.

RC

[Peebut]

Good luck

[RC]

It is a go for tomorrow ?


RC

[Tim Seaver]

So tomorrow still is looking potentially good - we are holed up at the Jackrabbit Inn in Lake Placid sorting gear right now.

We were not able to contact Richard Denker (the person mentioned in the NPT guide as having done the trail in 40 hours), unfortunately, which left us wondering what to use as starting and ending points. The ADK regards the current end points of the trail as the Godfrey Road parking lot and the Chubb River Bridge lot, so after much deliberation, we decided to go with that distance for this challenge. I see it as a choice of the "historic correctness" of using the Northville Bridge and the Military Road (or the center of Lake Placid Village as the pre-1980 trail did.), versus the purity of a trail run that begins and ends in the woods, instead of on a stretch of busy asphalt.

I believe the mileage will be 121.65.

[RC]

My plans have always to use the current end points when I do it. I've done the road from northville to benson and I would never want to do it to start the trip or end it. I wish you great luck tomorrow. I'll be wondering about tomorrow so keep us update if at all possible.

RC

[redhawk]

and that stretch of asphalt from Northville to the Upper Benson trailhead is one Hell of an ascent....

[RC]

or a descent if your coming down from placid. I would rather go up it then down it. I've run down to G'ville after a day of XC sking at LapLand and that downhill is hell when tired.


RC

[Tim Seaver]

Despite a pretty optimistic forecast, we got nailed with thunderstorms and 2 inches of rain for most of the afternoon yesterday, and bagged it at the Tarbell Road parking lot at Long Lake.

For me, these types of challenges are difficult enough without 100+ miles of puddle jumping, which would have turned what is very much an enjoyable run into a treacherous, nasty slog. On the upside, I was feeling great despite the crummy conditions, and arrived at Long Lake at 6:58, feeling ready to hammer the rest of the course out.. This was 17 minutes before my target time of 7:15 pm, or 8 hours and 58 minutes from the 10 am start at the Chubb River Bridge, pretty much averaging the 4 mph we hoped for. Maintaining this average would result in about a 30 hour total. The main problem at this point would have been keeping my feet from falling apart, which would have been difficult even with vast amounts of Vaseline we were using to keep my feet blister free and relatively dry. The NPT, being a lowland trail that skirts numerous bodies of water for it's entire length, is wet enough as it is without flash flooding and endless trenches of water.

It was pretty amazing how isolated this storm system was - for almost 4 hours, when I could see the sky over my left shoulder, it was as blue as can be - even though I was being pelted with heavy rain and lighting bolts were striking all around. This contrast made for some extremely beautiful scenes, particularly near Shattuck Clearing, which has become one of my favorite spots on the trail. I hope to be able to spend some time backpacking sections of the trail with some photo gear soon.

The team is more psyched than ever to return , hopefully before month's end, and give this another go. Thanks to all for the encouragement and offers of support!

A few pix from the day (http://www.vermontphoto.com/adk/NPT/attempt1/index.htm)

We'll be BACK!

[lumberzac]

That's too bad Tim. You have to love the weather in the Adirondacks. Best of luck to you on the next attempt.

[RC]

Sorry to hear the weather got you. Lets hope you have better weather next trip. Sounds like you had a good run going.


RC

[BarbOrdell]

Raisins Anyone? lol!! Love it. Now you should be well rested for Wakely.

[Moose]

Barb, I was thinking the same thing, all the runners in the Wakely just set their sites on 2nd place. Tim, after your Placid to Long Lake work-out are you ready for a new course record? :p

[mrbubbles]

I was just at Geylock in the fall, did you run up the road or trail. Either way, that's a tough run.

I ran up the steep trail (three miles) then down some less steep trails. It was a race put on by the Western Mass athletic club.

[Tim Seaver]

Just an update - my wife is going to be spending some time away with her family over the next week, so we won't be making another attempt until at the 1st week of August - hopefully the deerflies and humidity will have subsided a bit by then!

In the meantime, I am going to being doing some overnights and photography along parts of the trail. This weekend I will be in the Duck Hole and Shattuck Clearing areas. Hope to see ya'll on the trail!

[Head]

Good luck with your attempt Tim. Looking forward to the recon pics as well. Nice avatar by the way ;)
HEAD

[shaggy]

yah know Tim, I may have seen you . I was on that section of trail at that given day during my thru-hike of it this summer. The storm was terrible, and I think that you ran by us (myself, a guy with long blonde hair in a ponytail - and my hiking partner matty and a large 90 pound black dog). It was between the Shattaque clearing and long lake, we were heading north and you south. Did you carry only a camelback? Does this ring a bell with you or am I confusing you with another trail runner that fits all of this criteria? Anyways, wish you good luck with your adventure and hope that your feet heal up!

Shaggy

[Tim Seaver]

Shaggy, I saw you and your partner ( shirtless and soaked as I was), and one large dog with packs ( a great dane?) just around Plumley's Point - hope you found a good dry shelter that night! Did you get rained on the next day as well?

Thanks for the luck - after the weather we got on attempt #1, we may need it.

(The feet are fine - the "dishpan foot" effect goes away with only 15 minutes of drying time - once exposed to air the skin returns to normal pretty quickly.)

[Tim Seaver]

I had a great time exploring some of the NPT at a nice relaxed pace this weekend. I started at Lake Placid at 1 pm on Sat. and finished at Long Lake at 2 pm Monday, with the mandatory 55 mile Tour Du Ice Cream Parlors bike ride back to Lake Placid that evening.

A few pix from the outing (http://vermontphoto.com/adk/NPT/gallery2/index.htm)

[Tim Seaver]

We are slated for another try, starting Saturday morning at the Chubb River TH at 10 am. The weather for Saturday looks fantastic - NW winds 5-10 mph, lower to mid 70's, with Sunday looking a bit warmer but no mention of precip.

I've posted an estimated timeline of where we will be throughout the course of the event here (http://www.vermontphoto.com/adk/NPT/NPT2005Timeline.htm) . Anyone is welcome to stop by and visit our team ( Liz and Jamie ) at one of the support points listed - we should be running pretty tight to the schedule.

[RC]

Good luck. It looks like your going to have great weather. I'll be in the silver lake area sunday, but I think I'll just miss you. I wish I could wait or you, but my wife has plans in the afternoon.


RC

[Tim Seaver]

Thanks RC - glad to see you'll be out there enjoying the fine weather on the NPT - good luck with your speed-packin' traverse!

We adjusted our schedule, knocking everything back an hour.
The timeline (http://www.vermontphoto.com/adk/NPT/NPT2005Timeline.htm) has been updated.

[Rik]

Go Tim! Good Luck!

[Tim Seaver]

Success! While we didn't make our 28-32 hour window due to a major loss of steam in the final 16 mile stretch, I still managed to complete the trail in 37 hours 31 minutes (Chubb River Bridge to Upper Benson parking lot).

More of the story to follow in the days to come, featuring bee stings, speeding ambulances, and $87 cab rides. It was quite the weekend!

[RC]

Congrats. Even if you didn't make your window it's still one hell of a trip. I can't wait to read the rest of the story. We go in at military road thursday at 8am and hope to be out of benson sunday nite. I'n looking at about a 30lb pack with food and water. We hiked to silver lake and out ( 14.8m) last sunday in 4 hrs with full packs.


RC

[ken999]

...wow...congratulations...that's quite the accomplishment. I'm looking foward to the complete story.

[Rik]

Way to go Tim!

[Kevin]

That avatar is classic! :p

[Head]

Great job, Tim! Cant wait to hear the report. Sounds like it will be most interesting :)
HEAD

[mrbubbles]

Is this an FKT for the NPT??

[Tim Seaver]

Is this an FKT for the NPT??

That is the big question at this point.

Until I can confirm from somebody that Richard Denker used the same start and end points ( regardless of direction of travel), I cannot claim to have broken his record -that is, if he ran the entire 133 miles from the Northville Bridge to Averyville ( or possibly into lake Placid) in 40 hours, it would be a stretch to say that I "beat his time". I am trying to find out if there is a person who is an expert/history buff of the NPT that might know, as I have failed to contact Mr. Denker as of yet despite numerous searches and phone calls. He would most likely be in his 50's to 70's by now.

Hopefully we wil find out soon..the suspense is killing me!

[RC]

Tim,

Any real trouble spots on the trail to report ? We leave tomorrow morning from Placid.


RC

[Tim Seaver]

RC, no real troubles to report - most of the trail was unusually dry - I hardly even got my shoes wet. Much of the mud was firm enough to step in without sinking. There has been fresh trail work and clearing from Long Lake to Lake Durant ( and the formerly flooded boardwalks just North of Durant can be crossed without submerging your boots now)What I found most mystifying was that the "red tape re-lo" North of Stephens Pond above McCanes somehow isn't there anymore That's about all that I can remember of note.

The deerflies, however, are still hellacious, biting and swarming incessantly right until the headlights come out - but you probably knew that!

Best of luck on your trip, that's going to be a heck of a pace to keep with 30 lbs!

[RC]

Thanks for the info. I'll keep an eye out for the red tape or lack of it. My pack is 32lbs , but 12 of it is food and water. We both have monday off so we can take 5 days if needed. We will see how it goes.


RC

[Tim Seaver]

RC - the re-lo was very well marked before it disappeared, and there was spooky signage at one of the junctions that said something to the effect of "Beaver activity south of Stephens Pond will impede travel" ( I love the vagueness of that) There was an tree overhanging the trail loaded with red tape - the re-lo trail ( about 10 minutes) took a sharp left and made a crescent to the right, going through a soft, dry boggy area and re-joining the trail over lumpy terrain - it had a combination of red ribbons and more than a few blue discs, which is why I was suprised that it was gone. So either the beavers were nuked and trail restored, or I hallucinated my way right through it :)

On another note, I contacted the ADK today and was directed to somebody at the Schenectady Chapter who may know more about Richard Denkers journey, and hope to be hearing from them soon.

[mrbubbles]

On another note, I contacted the ADK today and was directed to somebody at the Schenectady Chapter who may know more about Richard Denkers journey, and hope to be hearing from them soon.

The suspense is killing me!!!

[Tim Seaver]

There is an interview on North Country Public Radio (http://www.northcountrypublicradio.org/news.php?getnewsfordate=1&mm=11&dd=17&yyyy=2005#6444) today about my run.

Also, a write-up can be found at Adirondack Sports & Fitness (http://www.adksportsfitness.com/november2005/articles/community.html)

Thanks to Darryl at ADK Sports and Fitness, who tracked down the original record holder, I was able to exchange a few emails with him (Richard Denker).

Here's an interesting quote from his letter:
My Explorer Post leader came up with the idea. I remember his reason for doing the run was to bring attention to the trail – I guess it was falling into some disrepair.
He ran much of the trail for the first time DURING the event, wearing cloth cross country shoes, at a time where long distance trail running was a rarity - at 18 years old! Pretty amazing stuff :)

[shaggy]

I was wondering how that went. On Saturday I was sitting down at a coffe shop thumbing through the Adirondack Sports & Fitness and I saw that article!! I told my girlfriend right away "Hey look, it is that guy that I saw on the trail this summer who was trying to run the entire trail!" I had told her the story a few times and she knew right away. I felt like I knew a celebrity even though we only exchanged a quick "hi" in the rain on your attempt #1. Congrats!!!!

Shaggy

[BarbOrdell]

Tim, Did you ever confirm with the boyscout the actual start and stop points of his record run?

[Tim Seaver]

Barb, we did find out his start and end points...here is an excerpt of a post made at viewsfromthetop.com (http://www.viewsfromthetop.com/forums/showpost.php?p=97948&postcount=21):

....He started at the Wescott Farm in Averyville, which was the terminus before 1978. Increased traffic on the trail led to relocating the section North of Wanika Falls to follow the east bank of the Chubb River to the Avervyville Road, a change which added 2.6 miles to this section of the trail (2.6 miles longer from Wanika falls to where the trail intersects the road - it doesn't add 2.6 miles to the overall course length)

On the south end, he finished at "Benson Center", which I am measuring as being at the junction where Trailhead Lodge is - this is .6 further than the current trailhead, which is on the Godfrey Road.

Overall, my 2005 route is roughly 2 miles longer ( not including the road sections outside of the 122 mile end-to-end points)
His overall time was 40 hours and 20 minutes ( ours was 37:31)

Richard Denkers Record of Trip (http://www.vermontphoto.com/adk/NPT/images/RichardDenkerNPTapp.jpg)
and
Support Team List (http://www.vermontphoto.com/adk/NPT/images/RichardDenkerSupport.jpg)
and the mandatory
Pace Comparison (http://www.vermontphoto.com/adk/NPT/DenkerVSSeaver.htm)