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RTSpoons
02-18-2007, 10:18 PM
On Saturday, Feb. 17th, as we were leaving the Loj road (almost to Rt. 73), a good size dog ran onto the road and than stood on the snow bank as we stopped to view the animal.

The wild dog looked to weight around 40 to 50 lbs., it was a rusty tan. It was not a domestic dog and it did not look like a coyote.

The Adirondack magzine just ran an article about coyote and wolf mixed animals.

From the look of this dog, it was that type of wolf.

:confused: Has anyone else seen wolf like dogs in the High Peak area?

Hobbitling
02-19-2007, 10:46 AM
Coyotes are very variable in their coloration. Tan isnt a common color, but it happens. It may very well have some wolf blood in it, or not. 40-50 lb is within the upper limit of eastern coyote size. Reports of animal size are almost always overestimated. with a full winter coat, it might only have weighed 30-40 lb.

RTSpoons
02-19-2007, 11:01 AM
I appreciate the reply. My friends, who were in the car, did not think it was a coyote. The coat was not mangy. They also said it was to big for a coyote. In any case, I will look up some pictures of eastern coyotes. Thanks for the reply.

Ron

poconoron
02-19-2007, 11:49 AM
I appreciate the reply. My friends, who were in the car, did not think it was a coyote. The coat was not mangy. They also said it was to big for a coyote. In any case, I will look up some pictures of eastern coyotes. Thanks for the reply.

Ron

I've seen a number of coyotes here in the East which were not at all "mangy", but were big-bodied, beautiful specimens ranging in color from tans to greys to near blacks. And due to probable wolf/coyote gene mixtures here in the Northeast, the coyotes do tend to look "taller" than their counterparts out West. I think the "mangy" look of western coyotes is what some people have in mind when they think "coyote", but that's just not the reality here in the Northeast. So my guess is coywolf, as they've been dubbed by some biologists.

See links below:

http://www.wildlifetech.com/pages/necoyote.htm

http://www.caledonianrecord.com/pages/local_news/story/fef373e9d

redhawk
02-19-2007, 12:20 PM
But, according to the DEC, there are no wolves in the dacks. :confused:

Must be immaculate conception? :eek:

RTSpoons
02-19-2007, 02:57 PM
The animal we saw, was full bodied, had a very nice coat, it was tan to reddish in color, and was confident enough to stand on the snowbank and wonder what are these sad sacks in the car staring at.

Anyway, last year by the upper works, a red fox, circled us in the parking lot. It had a beautiful winter coat, not unlike the dog we observed Saturday.

Grayelve
02-20-2007, 05:32 PM
:eh?: DEC may not have seen them lately but I saw one about a dozen feet off our trail scouting us and I am sure it was interested in my youngest who was lagging and when I went to have a talk about keeping up and in sight. Well that feeling that something was ghosting on the edge of my sight got verified with me and the wolf making a face to face and then him disappearing back into the wood. We had enough daylight to get to the first pond in our plans and back before we would start loosing the light. And that wolf crossed the trail after us leaving his prints in a small muddy wash which I definitely noted on the way back. That may have been in the area South of buttermilk falls and about 23 years ago. We used to call the cross breed then coydogs and they stay grouped. I think a wolf, if they are still around, would have seen that dog as prey. So I think you saw a dog whatever his circumstance in life.

dmartenvt
02-25-2007, 10:10 PM
If you only have a few minutes to try and identify a dog vs. wolf look at the ears and tail -- wolves have much smaller, rounded, furrier ears than dogs. The ears are not only smaller than a dog's, they appear very small for the size of the head, and very very furry. Their tails will also be straight - they never have curled tails as many of the dogs that look like wolves do (Malamutes, Huskies, etc.). The coyotes in the Adirondacks are pretty big cousins of the Western ones - they are a hybrid of the red wolf and the coyote and I believe range up to 50, maybe even 60 lbs.

If you catch them running, one way to distinguish between the three - coyotes will run with their tails down, dogs with their tails up, and wolves with their tails straight back. I would guess Coy Dogs are pretty infrequent creatures and it's likely a wolf-coyote hybrid that you saw.

People do breed wolves and dogs - having done rescue for years I think this is a very bad idea - it's cruel to condemn a wolf or wolf hybrid to the life of a domesticated dog - they are generally very unhappy and nervous creatures.

So far, I've only caught fleeting glimpses of the coyotes in the Adirondacks; I hear them quite frequently though and see their tracks. The howls echoing in the woods are absolutely beautiful. My dogs consider them a mortal enemy, hence they don't approach close enough to get a good look at. When I hear them at night the dogs are confined to barracks.

Hobbitling
02-25-2007, 10:52 PM
you can also tell dogs from coyotes and wolfs by the tracks.
coyotes and wolves tend to place their back feet in the same place as the front footprint, so you get the alternating print, like they are two legged. dogs front and hind footprints rarely overlap. Dogs also tend to wander around more, while coyotes usually head pretty straight towards their destination (but not always).

GW
04-14-2007, 01:52 PM
Here's a link to the DEC in regards to the Gray Wolf in NY:
http://www.dec.state.ny.us:80/website/dfwmr/wildlife/endspec/grwofs.html

Connie Bear Orion
04-14-2007, 03:01 PM
I appreciate the reply. My friends, who were in the car, did not think it was a coyote. The coat was not mangy. They also said it was to big for a coyote. In any case, I will look up some pictures of eastern coyotes. Thanks for the reply.

Ron

I have seen some coyotes with beautiful coats.
Got one during southern deer season, beautiful fur and the whitest teeth I have ever seen.

I've seen a number of coyotes here in the East which were not at all "mangy", but were big-bodied, beautiful specimens ranging in color from tans to greys to near blacks. And due to probable wolf/coyote gene mixtures here in the Northeast, the coyotes do tend to look "taller" than their counterparts out West. I think the "mangy" look of western coyotes is what some people have in mind when they think "coyote", but that's just not the reality here in the Northeast. So my guess is coywolf, as they've been dubbed by some biologists.

See links below:

http://www.wildlifetech.com/pages/necoyote.htm

http://www.caledonianrecord.com/pages/local_news/story/fef373e9d

How about a Coyote dog cross.

I do know of some people with wolf/dog cross breed pets.
Which I understand is not legal in this state.

The animal we saw, was full bodied, had a very nice coat, it was tan to reddish in color, and was confident enough to stand on the snowbank and wonder what are these sad sacks in the car staring at.

Anyway, last year by the upper works, a red fox, circled us in the parking lot. It had a beautiful winter coat, not unlike the dog we observed Saturday.

I have seen coyotes in colors from very light brown to blackish and to reddish.

As for confidence. I have seen Coyotes in a trap get nasty like a pitbull in a dog fight and ones that have sat down like a friendly golden retriever that just wants to be petted.

IF you had stoped the car and got out the animal would have been gone before you got a foot on the ground more then likely.

gulo
04-15-2007, 07:30 AM
But, according to the DEC, there are no wolves in the dacks. :confused:

Roland Kays, a mammologist from the State Museum, gave a jaunty talk at SUNY New Paltz recently on coyotes (great to hear a scientist with some mojo for his subject), and mentioned that the DEC had confirmed a healthy, wild gray wolf shot in Saratoga County. Along with other tests on the carcass, analysis of its bone marrow showed an absence of corn in its diet (a test they use to rule out released pets from corn in commercial feed), so they concluded the animal likely got there on its own; the first modern confirmation of a gray wolf in NY.

He also mentioned that two gray wolves have been confirmed in Maine, and one is being tested that was shot in Vermont near the Canadian border in December. Grey wolves are certainly present in eastern Canada.

As mentioned in other posts elsewhere on the forum, significant DNA testing on coyotes has determined that they are hybridized red/Algonquin wolves, not gray wolves, which probably accounts for their broad range of pelage (I've seen two gorgeous charcoal/black coyotes).

Hobbitling is right about weight estimates. Kays had detailed graphs on their size related to region. The largest have been found in the Dacks, and the heaviest coyote yet taken in the state is 51 lbs.

While coydogs were present in the state before WW II, testing has also shown that there is little recent DNA evidence of coyote/dog hybridization.

Connie Bear Orion
04-15-2007, 11:04 AM
Roland Kays, a mammologist from the State Museum, gave a jaunty talk at SUNY New Paltz recently on coyotes (great to hear a scientist with some mojo for his subject), and mentioned that the DEC had confirmed a healthy, wild gray wolf shot in Saratoga County. Along with other tests on the carcass, analysis of its bone marrow showed an absence of corn in its diet (a test they use to rule out released pets from corn in commercial feed), so they concluded the animal likely got there on its own; the first modern confirmation of a gray wolf in NY.

He also mentioned that two gray wolves have been confirmed in Maine, and one is being tested that was shot in Vermont near the Canadian border in December. Grey wolves are certainly present in eastern Canada.

As mentioned in other posts elsewhere on the forum, significant DNA testing on coyotes has determined that they are hybridized red/Algonquin wolves, not gray wolves, which probably accounts for their broad range of pelage (I've seen two gorgeous charcoal/black coyotes).

How far back in its life does the DNA show corn or not?
What if it was a pet that was never fed anything but meat?

I know of a couple people who have cross breed half wolf half dog.
Gotta figure mom or dad was a full breed wolf.
People do alot of stupid things. The pet gets to big they release it.
Happens alot with snakes.
My buddy that does nuisance wildlife removal gets lots of phone calls for boa constrictors.

Did they have an explaination of how the wolf they confirmed got here?
Do they figure its just a lone stragler that started roaming and made it to Saratoga?

That Charcoal/black coyote can just be a color of a regular coyote.
Like a black squirrel is still a grey squirrel.

poconoron
04-15-2007, 01:22 PM
That Charcoal/black coyote can just be a color of a regular coyote.
Like a black squirrel is still a grey squirrel.

The coyotes out West rarely turn up with black pelage- that seems to be more a characteristic of eastern coyotes, and as the theory goes, that is due to wolf genes being picked up by the coyotes as they moved through Ontario into the eastern US.

See this:

http://www.timberwolfinformation.org/info/archieve/newspapers/viewnews.cfm?ID=2026

gulo
04-15-2007, 02:40 PM
A wild animal is going to show a lot more mileage on its feet, battle scars, and less body fat - among other things biologists/pathologists will look for - than a captive wolf. No doubt a healthy released pet could be out there surviving wild, showing all the wear and tear of a wild animal, and sure it could have been a straggler, though I'd prefer to think of it as a disperser. Like juvenile cougars, who've been clocked roaming nearly 700 miles from their birthplace, wolves will range to establish their own territories and to find mates.

I'm sure one can find different pelage phases of western coyotes, but the record suggests the phase-range in the eastern coyote is far broader.

SUNY ESF has launched a half-million dollar study to determine genetic subgroups (if any), predation habits, and the state's population distribution of the eastern coyote.

St.Regis
04-15-2007, 02:51 PM
SUNY ESF has launched a half-million dollar study to determine genetic subgroups (if any), predation habits, and the state's population distribution of the eastern coyote.

Hey gulo, do you know who is heading this at ESF? Don't know if it's still the case, but Doc Chambers was the coyote man :cool: .

gulo
04-15-2007, 03:17 PM
Drs. Frair and Gibbs.

Connie Bear Orion
04-15-2007, 06:46 PM
A wild animal is going to show a lot more mileage on its feet, battle scars, and less body fat - among other things biologists/pathologists will look for - than a captive wolf. No doubt a healthy released pet could be out there surviving wild, showing all the wear and tear of a wild animal,

A pet that got free and has been living wild could show such signs as a wild animal after a while of living wild.
That would be part of the reason they do the check for if its been eating grain. I bet.

I question the need or if its right to introduce such animals.
But if they come here on their own. Thats cool.
Not sure I want to meet one in the woods but it would be cool to see.

I have yet to see a moose in the wild yet either.:cry:

redhawk
04-15-2007, 07:43 PM
Not sure I want to meet one in the woods but it would be cool to see.

I have yet to see a moose in the wild yet either.:cry:

I've met wolves in the wild without incident. I'll have to dig around and see if I can find some pictures or a wolf I befriended and named Tecumseh.

I've met moose too and they are scarier. In fact I think that I'm warier of moose then any other animal in North America with the exception of Puma and of course venomous snakes. The scary thing about snakes are that you are most likely not to see them until it's too late.

Actually I think the most dangerous thing is a hornets nest. Or how about an anthill?

DuctTape
04-15-2007, 09:07 PM
I saw a moose back in High School when I was in Algonquin Provincial Park. Magnificent creature. We stayed far from it for safety reasons.

dmartenvt
04-15-2007, 11:43 PM
I think moose are so dangerous because they *look* so placid, but they are not. More people in Alaska are killed each year by moose than by grizzlies (or so I was told by some Alaskans who were taking me around Valdez). I would like to see the wolf naturally move back to the Adirondacks. It's about the only thing I know of that keeps coyote at a reasonable population. And while I'm quite fond of Wile E., I shudder to think of the actions people will take if the population explodes as it has in some suburban areas. Does anyone know if there's a discernable difference in the howls of a coyote (or coyote-wolf hybrid that we have here) and a wolf?

Dick
04-16-2007, 07:04 AM
Does anyone know if there's a discernable difference in the howls of a coyote (or coyote-wolf hybrid that we have here) and a wolf?

Somewhere on this site are links to various animal sounds. Here are a couple:

http://www.extremezone.com/~swref/sounds/sounds.htm
http://www.city.west-lafayette.in.us/wlpd/coyote.htm

Wolves:
http://www.boomerwolf.com/wsounds.htm
http://www.geocities.com/rainforest/wetlands/1136/sounds.html
http://www.timberwolfinformation.org/gallery/gallery.cfm?gallery=6

Various:
http://members.tripod.com/Thryomanes/AnimalSounds.html

I know there are more.

Dick

poconoron
04-16-2007, 04:46 PM
Does anyone know if there's a discernable difference in the howls of a coyote (or coyote-wolf hybrid that we have here) and a wolf?

I would answer this by first re-capping the following types of wild canids:

1. Timber wolf
2. Red (or Algonquin) type wolf
3. Coyote/Wolf hybrid- this is usually the result of Coyote/RWolf mating. Apparently the size difference between TWolf and coyote makes this hybridization alot less likely.
4. Coyote

The difference between 1 and 4 is like night and day- the deep, full-throated, mournful howl of the TWolf vs. the thin, yipping, more maniacal sound of the coyote howl.

Things start to get alot more interesting in comparing between 2 and 3. I've heard Algonquin wolves howl in Algonquin Park and it's certainly recognizable as a wolf- but not as deep and full-sounding as the TWolf recordings I've heard. And, I've heard a range of howls in the ADKs, some sounding more coyote-like and some bordering on sounding like what I heard in Algonquin.

Apparently even the "experts" have a hard time knowing for sure what they're hearing in the Northeast sometimes as described in this excerpt from the following link:

http://www.wildlifetech.com/pages/necoyote.htm

The best description of the howls we heard in Papineau-LaBelle come from naturalist writer Edward Hoagland in his book "Red Wolves and Black Bears." Hoagland, a Vermont resident, writes: "Red wolves howl in a higher, less emotive pitch than gray wolves and don’t blend with each other quite as stylishly, though they do employ more nuances and personality than a coyote family’s gabble." Hoagland, who researched some of the last known red wolves in the southern United States, also compared their calls to those of coyotes. He writes, "A coyote’s howl sounds hysterical, amateurish by comparison, chopped and frantic, almost like barnyard cackling." But the coyotes Hoagland was describing in his 1972 book were the small, western variety. Since then, geneticists have found that eastern coyotes have varying degrees of red-wolf genes, thus accounting for their increased size and, at times, almost wolflike traits of killing deer and beaver and traveling in larger packs than western coyotes. Some of these wolf-coyote mixtures, the result of extensive interbreeding in southeastern Canada, are hard to classify.

"So, what should a hybrid sound like?" Bob Chambers asked me once. Chambers, professor emeritus at the State University of New York College of Environmental Science and Forestry and an eastern-coyote expert, said, "In all my years of tracking and studying eastern coyotes in the Newcomb area, there were a couple of times when I wasn’t sure exactly what I was hearing — a coyote, , a wolf or a hybrid." Ray Masters, a wildlife technician at SUNY ESF, Newcomb, who has worked extensively with Chambers in the past, joined me on a southern Quebec wolf calling trip in 2000, and we luckily got to hear a couple of packs howl.

The next morning, Masters joined the other participants on the porch of the chalet where we had spent the night and announced, "I’ve heard that same howling before — near Newcomb." Masters is not one to exaggerate, so that leads to the question: What is actually out there in northern New York? Judging from the latest research done at the University of Trent in Ontario by geneticists Drs. Bradley White and Paul Wilson, the clear differences once thought to separate red and gray wolves and eastern coyotes don’t exist anymore in a portion of southern Canada and the northeastern United States.

In fact, though there are still core areas that are predominately red wolf (called eastern Canadian wolf by the researchers), in peripheral areas there is extensive interbreeding with coyotes going on in southern Ontario and Quebec, and we in northern New York may be getting some of the second or third generation offspring of those unions, so maybe some of the howls I heard in early August weren’t pure coyotes exercising their vocal cords, but members of a wild canid species that is still evolving.

dmartenvt
04-16-2007, 10:08 PM
Thank you both for the wealth of information -- my dogs are going nuts while I listen to these. I will say one night the howling was markedly different than the normal coyote howls I normally hear, and much more like the wolves. But I've also heard other very strange noises out back there...chanting, odd whacking on trees, it goes on! Sometimes I swear the woods are haunted.

redhawk
04-17-2007, 09:11 AM
But I've also heard other very strange noises out back there...chanting, odd whacking on trees, it goes on! Sometimes I swear the woods are haunted.

Relax, it's probably just Neil fumbling through the woods on one of his "moonlight bushwhacks".